• We are implementing a new rule regarding the posting of social media links and Youtube videos, the rule is simple if you are posting these links please say something about it rather than just dropping what we call a "drive by Link", a comment on your thoughts about the content must be included. Thank you

Politics The COVID-19 pandemic news and discussion.

Depending on the demographic, the healthy age group 10-39 had a mortality of 0.2%. If you believe the Chinese data.
The Germans have run tests with high-risk individuals and concluded the virus causes symptoms only in every fourth person infected. In other words, the virus's overall mortality shrinks with the observable death toll dropping from 3/100 to 3/400. That's absolutely within the boundaries of the common flu, a disease most people don't even take seriously enough to get vaccinated against.

This whole panic is completely blown out of proportion – thanks to the media, who still have the impudence to chide the common man for his fear of anything Chinese, a fear they worked hard to fan. I couldn't believe my eyes today doing my groceries; some of the shops to which I went looked like a news reel from Venezuela. It's ridiculous and only reaffirms my staunch belief the average person can't deal with the abundance of information available to them.
 
We were actually out of toilet paper two days ago. When I stopped at wal mart in a nearby town, there was plenty - not even empty spaces on the shelves. I asked a stocker if there had been a run on anything and she said no. In fact, wal mart central told them to load up on bottled water so they did, and it's not selling. There were two pallets in the aisle blocking things.

Went to the local gro for a few supplies today. On the list was a bottle of hand sanitizer. Out. I asked the cashier if they had a run on it, and she said no - the main warehouse just didn't send any.

Thankfully no panic here - so far. I'm still going to Belgium last part of April and am holding out for cheap tickets.

Attended a small gun show this morning. No panic buying of Evil Black Rifles... no deals on them, either. Actually, I never did see money change hands. Found a Puma knife I liked, but I'm saving money for the expo.
 
Not any signs of panic in Russia (at least here in Siberia). Usual crowds on the streets, shopping malls and so. Nobody wear masks.

Still amazed how bad Italy failed with the outbreak.
 
Not any signs of panic in Russia (at least here in Siberia). Usual crowds on the streets, shopping malls and so. Nobody wear masks.

Still amazed how bad Italy failed with the outbreak.

I wouldn’t be so quick to risk to judgement.

The portion of Italy hit hardest is the core of Italy’s machine tools industry with very close ties to China.

The damage may have been done early.
 
There's something to be said about the government's crisis management, though. There's been reports of entire towns just saying "screw that" to the quarantine. Scores of people left their homes, went to work, a couple of them even travelled abroad. Hardly as intended.
 
There's something to be said about the government's crisis management, though. There's been reports of entire towns just saying "screw that" to the quarantine. Scores of people left their homes, went to work, a couple of them even travelled abroad. Hardly as intended.
Like the threat of terrorism, people refuse to cower down and instead continue to live their lives although with one eye on what is occurring
 
Truth be told… I think those Italians were more likely motivated by economic necessity (no work, no pay) or a general mistrust of the government. Don't get me wrong, it's just that their political system is known to be volatile and they've had like 50 prime ministers since 1946. The average Italian isn't subservient to authority.
 
The Germans have run tests with high-risk individuals and concluded the virus causes symptoms only in every fourth person infected. In other words, the virus's overall mortality shrinks with the observable death toll dropping from 3/100 to 3/400. That's absolutely within the boundaries of the common flu, a disease most people don't even take seriously enough to get vaccinated against.

This whole panic is completely blown out of proportion – thanks to the media, who still have the impudence to chide the common man for his fear of anything Chinese, a fear they worked hard to fan. I couldn't believe my eyes today doing my groceries; some of the shops to which I went looked like a news reel from Venezuela. It's ridiculous and only reaffirms my staunch belief the average person can't deal with the abundance of information available to them.
Again i cannot let you say that because this is wrong (and i am strongly against any kind of hysteria for the record)
Mortality is calculated on confirmed cases. Always. You have mild or poorly symptomatic cases for the seasonal flu too so if you divide your mortality ratio for the coronavirus because of asymptomatic/paucisymptomatic patients, you have to do the same for the flu. And you end up with the same mortality difference of 5 to 10 vs 1.

Issues with the Covid that make it different from a typical seasonal flu (not the overly virulent like the 1957 asiatic variant) are:

A slightly higher R0
A not seasonal distribution (less impacted than flu by UV and weather)
And, this is the key point beside mortality that would make a management of mass outbreak very complicated, 15-20% of patients that end ip in serious condition so need a ICU/emergency care (when it is around 3 to 5% for the flu.)
In other word, even if the mortality was the same (which is not, although it need to be said that it is not the black plague) the Covid19 has the potential to clog and break the medical structures of our countries if the number of cases bypass a certain threshold.
 
The true mortality is still an information that the public needs to know. Particularly in this climate of unchecked insanity.
So following your logic, what is the true flu mortality then because this is something everybody willing to tone down the issue is refering to ?

I ll give the answer : the flu asymptomatic cases range from 30% to 85% of the total cases following the studies.
If the "true" mortality for the flu is what everybody wants to take as reference, this means that seasonal flu kills 0.11-0.17 to 0.21-0.42/100 instead of 0.2 to 0.6
Which is still under 3/400 for the adjusted mortality coronovirus by 5 to 10 fold.

The same ratio than before.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here a pretty well written blog article that points what i am assessing from the beginning.
The issue is not the mortality in itsel but the potential saturation of the health care system.

with the link it is better : https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1236095180459003909.html

I think most people aren’t aware of the risk of systemic healthcare failure due to #COVID19 because they simply haven’t run the numbers yet. Let’s talk math.


Let’s conservatively assume that there are 2,000 current cases in the US today, March 6th. This is about 8x the number of confirmed (lab-diagnosed) cases. We know there is substantial under-Dx due to lack of test kits; I’ll address implications later of under-/over-estimate. 2/n


We can expect that we’ll continue to see a doubling of cases every 6 days (this is a typical doubling time across several epidemiological studies). Here I mean *actual* cases. Confirmed cases may appear to rise faster in the short term due to new test kit rollouts. 3/n


We’re looking at about 1M US cases by the end of April, 2M by ~May 5, 4M by ~May 11, and so on. Exponentials are hard to grasp, but this is how they go. 4/n


As the healthcare system begins to saturate under this case load, it will become increasingly hard to detect, track, and contain new transmission chains. In absence of extreme interventions, this likely won’t slow significantly until hitting >>1% of susceptible population. 5/n


What does a case load of this size mean for healthcare system? We’ll examine just two factors — hospital beds and masks — among many, many other things that will be impacted. 6/n


The US has about 2.8 hospital beds per 1000 people. With a population of 330M, this is ~1M beds. At any given time, 65% of those beds are already occupied. That leaves about 330k beds available nationwide (perhaps a bit fewer this time of year with regular flu season, etc). 7/n


Let’s trust Italy’s numbers and assume that about 10% of cases are serious enough to require hospitalization. (Keep in mind that for many patients, hospitalization lasts for *weeks* — in other words, turnover will be *very* slow as beds fill with COVID19 patients). 8/n


By this estimate, by about May 8th, all open hospital beds in the US will be filled. (This says nothing, of course, about whether these beds are suitable for isolation of patients with a highly infectious virus.) 9/n


If we’re wrong by a factor of two regarding the fraction of severe cases, that only changes the timeline of bed saturation by 6 days in either direction. If 20% of cases require hospitalization, we run out of beds by ~May 2nd. 10/n


If only 5% of cases require it, we can make it until ~May 14th. 2.5% gets us to May 20th. This, of course, assumes that there is no uptick in demand for beds from *other* (non-COVID19) causes, which seems like a dubious assumption. 11/n


As healthcare system becomes increasingly burdened, Rx shortages, etc, people w/ chronic conditions that are normally well-managed may find themselves slipping into severe states of medical distress requiring intensive care & hospitalization. But let’s ignore that for now. 12/n


Alright, so that’s beds. Now masks. Feds say we have a national stockpile of 12M N95 masks and 30M surgical masks (which are not ideal, but better than nothing). 13/n


There are about 18M healthcare workers in the US. Let’s assume only 6M HCW are working on any given day. (This is likely an underestimate as most people work most days of the week, but again, I’m playing conservative at every turn.) 14/n


As COVID19 cases saturate virtually every state and county, which seems likely to happen any day now, it will soon be irresponsible for all HCWs to not wear a mask. These HCWs would burn through N95 stockpile in 2 days if each HCW only got ONE mask per day. 15/n


One per day would be neither sanitary nor pragmatic, though this is indeed what we saw in Wuhan, with HCWs collapsing on their shift from dehydration because they were trying to avoid changing their PPE suits as they cannot be reused. 16/n


How quickly could we ramp up production of new masks? Not very fast at all. The vast majority are manufactured overseas, almost all in China. Even when manufactured here in US, the raw materials are predominantly from overseas... again, predominantly from China. 17/n


Keep in mind that all countries globally will be going through the exact same crises and shortages simultaneously. We can’t force trade in our favor. 18/n


Now consider how these 2 factors – bed and mask shortages – compound each other’s severity. Full hospitals + few masks + HCWs running around between beds without proper PPE = very bad mix. 19/n


HCWs are already getting infected even w/ access to full PPE. In the face of PPE limitations this severe, it’s only a matter of time. HCWs will start dropping from the workforce for weeks at a time, leading to a shortage of HCWs that then further compounds both issues above. 20/n


We could go on and on about thousands of factors – # of ventilators, or even simple things like saline drip bags. You see where this is going. 21/n


Importantly, I cannot stress this enough: even if I’m wrong – even VERY wrong – about core assumptions like % of severe cases or current case #, it only changes the timeline by days or weeks. This is how exponential growth in an immunologically naïve population works. 22/n


Undeserved panic does no one any good. But neither does ill-informed complacency. It’s wrong to assuage the public by saying “only 2% will die.” People aren’t adequately grasping the national and global systemic burden wrought by this swift-moving of a disease. 23/n


I’m an engineer. This is what my mind does all day: I run back-of-the-envelope calculations to try to estimate order-of-magnitude impacts. I’ve been on high alarm about this disease since ~Jan 19 after reading clinical indicators in the first papers emerging from Wuhan. 24/n


Nothing in the last 6 weeks has dampened my alarm in the slightest. To the contrary, we’re seeing abject refusal of many countries to adequately respond or prepare. Of course some of these estimates will be wrong, even substantially wrong. 25/n


But I have no reason to think they’ll be orders-of-magnitude wrong. Even if your personal risk of death is very, very low, don’t mock decisions like canceling events or closing workplaces as undue “panic”. 26/n


These measures are the bare minimum we should be doing to try to shift the peak – to slow the rise in cases so that healthcare systems are less overwhelmed. Each day that we can delay an extra case is a big win for the HC system. 27/n


And yes, you really should prepare to buckle down for a bit. All services and supply chains will be impacted. Why risk the stress of being ill-prepared? 28/n


Worst case, I’m massively wrong and you now have a huge bag of rice and black beans to burn through over the next few months and enough Robitussin to trip out. 29/n


One more thought: you’ve probably seen multiple respected epidemiologists have estimated that 20-70% of world will be infected within the next year. If you use 6-day doubling rate I mentioned above, we land at ~2-6 billion infected by sometime in July of this year. 30/n


Obviously I think the doubling time will start to slow once a sizeable fraction of the population has been infected, simply because of herd immunity and a smaller susceptible population. 31/n


But take the scenarios above (full beds, no PPE, etc, at just 1% of the US population infected) and stretch them out over just a couple extra months. 32/n


That timeline roughly fits with consensus end-game numbers from these highly esteemed epidemiologists. Again, we’re talking about discrepancies of mere days or weeks one direction or another, but not disagreements in the overall magnitude of the challenge. 33/n


This is not some hypothetical, fear-mongering, worst-case scenario. This is reality, as far as anyone can tell with the current available data. 34/n


That’s all for now. Standard disclaimers apply: I’m a PhD biologist but *not* an epidemiologist. Thoughts my own. Yadda yadda. Stay safe out there.

The risk lays there, not in a discussion about yada yada this is like the flu
Again flu ends up with very very few heavy cases
Seasonal flu (let's take US numbers has infected 35 to 45 million of americans in 2017 and 2019 (CDC numbers - symptomatic patients-)
Hospitalisations went from 490K to 800 K (around 30/100 000 so 0.3%)
Flu related deaths went from 35K to 60K


Now paste those numbers for the Coronavirus (same or even better transmission index)
40 million of persons showing symptoms with 10 to 15% needing hospitalisation (so 4 to 6 million of beds needed - and as assessed above, not for just 1 or 2 days) and the system would crumble under its own weight
Of course all the cases don't happen at the same time. If we take the actual 2020 flu numbers you have running right now 22 million of cases in USA and 35 hospitalisations for 100 000
If it was 22 million of confirmed cases of CoVid19 you would need at least 2.2 million of beds (twice the number of hospital beds available)
Not really the same numbers
That's called epidemiology and this is something some people don't grasp.
Big number rule, baby ....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Do life insurance companies win or loose lately and what are odds in online betting?
 
Romania today -

17 confirmed cases, 3 released cured from hospital.
13,000 in voluntary home quarantine
25 admitted to hospital possibly with the virus, held in quarantine for tests.

Seems most cases originate with people returning from Italy, new measures to be introduced such as events over 1000 people attending to be banned.

https://www.romaniajournal.ro/socie...activities-with-more-than-1000-people-banned/
 
The Norwegian military quarantined 1,300 personnel on a base in the northern part of the country after a case of coronavirus was confirmed among them.

No one will be allowed in or out of the Skjold base in the Troms region after one person tested positive for the virus on Thursday, the Norwegian Armed Forces said in a statement. The infected person doesn’t have serious symptoms.

And due to this new development Finland decided to cancel their participation in Cold Response in northern Norway. Finland was supposed to take part in that exercise with 400 troops. (in Finnish, says same thing I just told you)
 
16 million people quarantained...right...has Italy turned into the DPRK?

As Italy is pretty much the test case for Europe I'm going to expect this policy being rolled out across Europe as an when needed . How it works god only knows . I'll guess people will be allowed to move freely within their " zone " but this action will try and contain the virus within that zone . When the Corona has worked it's way through the population within move on to the next zone . It's about trying to limit numbers as not to overload medical services .
 
Here a pretty well written blog article that points what i am assessing from the beginning.
The issue is not the mortality in itsel but the potential saturation of the health care system.

with the link it is better : https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1236095180459003909.html



The risk lays there, not in a discussion about yada yada this is like the flu
Again flu ends up with very very few heavy cases
Seasonal flu (let's take US numbers has infected 35 to 45 million of americans in 2017 and 2019 (CDC numbers - symptomatic patients-)
Hospitalisations went from 490K to 800 K (around 30/100 000 so 0.3%)
Flu related deaths went from 35K to 60K


Now paste those numbers for the Coronavirus (same or even better transmission index)
40 million of persons showing symptoms with 10 to 15% needing hospitalisation (so 4 to 6 million of beds needed - and as assessed above, not for just 1 or 2 days) and the system would crumble under its own weight
Of course all the cases don't happen at the same time. If we take the actual 2020 flu numbers you have running right now 22 million of cases in USA and 35 hospitalisations for 100 000
If it was 22 million of confirmed cases of CoVid19 you would need at least 2.2 million of beds (twice the number of hospital beds available)
Not really the same numbers
That's called epidemiology and this is something some people don't grasp.
Big number rule, baby ....
I would expect- but am not so far seeing - the government doing more to educate us on what over the counter pills to take, i.e. ibrufen, and when to call an ambulance etc. i.e. breathing difficulty. if everyone with a sniffle heads for A&E the system will collapse, simply on car parking needs, never mind beds, doctors, nurses etc.
 
I would expect- but am not so far seeing - the government doing more to educate us on what over the counter pills to take, i.e. ibrufen, and when to call an ambulance etc. i.e. breathing difficulty. if everyone with a sniffle heads for A&E the system will collapse, simply on car parking needs, never mind beds, doctors, nurses etc.
Beware, that sounds socialistic nanny state management.
How dare not the hospital receive me. They owe me that, i pay taxes...
And others kind of expectable sillinesses
 

Similar threads

Back
Top