Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Chazman]

On this topic. Trump supporters having principles/their own opinions and criticizing Trump.


We have gone over this multiple times. This "what about" is getting stale.
Yes Europe could likely do more, does that absolve Trump's policy in this topic? No.


What are you on about? Europe is increasing its military as we speak. NATO just agreed to raise spending (thanks to trump for that)
EU just passed new oil sanctions last month.
Europe already has a "coalition of the willing" that will take part in guaranteeing Ukrainian security. Has been for months.
Can and should Europe do more? Yes. Glad we got this sorted out.

So that's what you want? If Trump's supporters don't turn on him, they have no principles? Really?

Do you feel the latest EU/NATO (promise of) increased spending, slightly tougher talk, etc. are going to be sufficient? Has that intimidated Putin? Perhaps more is needed? I did see European leaders issue a statement today supporting the Alaska Summit, maybe you guys should send them some idiotic memes which may change their minds.

Anyway boys, I've got plans tonight. Sort this out amongst yourselves. I can't wait to see what great ideas and memes you post, when I check later.

 

[Chazman]

Yes.

But your question is hardly an answer to my question, is it?

Since this issue seems so important to you, maybe you could also address the many wrenches Biden and Trump have been throwing in Europe's gears. We've been about this before. Biden has blocked numerous attempts of European countries to supply more potent arms, citing ITAR or fears of escalation. Trump pressured Europe not to lower the price cap on Russian oil, and sabotaged the May ultimatum issued by Starmer, Macron and Merz.

Great to hear. I gotta go, but I still remember the German delegation literally LOL-ing at the simpleton Trump, when he told them to stop supporting Putin with oil purchases and spend on defense. I'll come back to this later.

 

[muck]

I gotta go, but I still remember the German delegation literally LOL-ing at the simpleton Trump, when he told them to stop supporting Putin with oil purchases and spend on defense.

And nearly ten years later, a German Chancellor pushed through starving Russia of their oil revenues against Trump's resistance, and without America joining the effort despite repeated protestations to the contrary. Which only goes to show whataboutisms explain nothing, and only ever serve the purpose of deflecting questions.

 

[Fluff]

@Chazman & @Fluff

Even the New York Post, whilst fawning over Trump's abilities as a diplomat, offers criticism and demands Trump take action:

I've no idea where the NYT sits politically, and in no way am i blind to trumps pecadilos/faults/self belief etc etc. but he is trying, and in other conflicts getting some success. So for now I'm going to cut his some slack.

@Chazman mentioned Europe doing more, now/today yes, previously everyone was happy to follow uncle Jo's go easy take your time policy. Not a period anyone should be proud of, letting Ukranians die so Russia didnt collapse and Europe didnt pay more for gas.....

Its possible Trump is using the threat of forcing Europe to pay more, making the war less palatable to Europe, that means Europe might get serious about sanctions, oil etc. As a threat to Putin. Hope that makes sense.

 

[thelistener]

So that's what you want? If Trump's supporters don't turn on him, they have no principles? Really?

You're pointing out the problem well. Criticizing=turning on him.

 

[primer]

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Putin Yugend sings about whats troubling them 22:40 right after he discusses Lavrovs CCCP issues.

It's a pattern.

 

[thelistener]

recommended read

European leaders had been told by the U.S. ahead of the summit in Anchorage that Moscow had indicated to Washington that it was willing to accept a temporary cease-fire and would attend a second round of talks toward a longer-term peace, according to three of the European officials.

But in a call from Air Force One on his way home from the summit, Trump relayed to the Europeans that Putin wanted to keep fighting, the officials said.

In a joint statement Saturday after calls with Trump and among themselves, European leaders appeared to reference the president’s offer for security guarantees.

“We are clear that Ukraine must have ironclad security guarantees to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity,” the leaders of Germany, France, Britain, Poland, Italy, Finland and the European Union institutions said in the statement. “We welcome President Trump’s statement that the US is prepared to give security guarantees.”
The highly billed summit in Alaska yielded few concrete steps toward ending the war in Ukraine, which is now well into its fourth year. Trump and Putin signaled that some agreements had been reached but there was no clear breakthrough. The U.S. president left Anchorage without the cease-fire deal he was determined to bring home.

“There will be very severe consequences,” Trump said ahead of the meeting in response to a question about what he would do if Putin failed to offer a cease-fire.

Hours after meeting Putin, however, he dropped his demand in a post on his Truth Social platform, in which he argued in favor of going straight to negotiations for a full peace agreement following his discussions with the leaders of Russia, Ukraine and other European nations.

Trump and Zelensky are set to meet in the Oval Office on Monday for talks, which will be attended by at least one other European leader. Trump said that if that meeting goes well, he would schedule a meeting with Putin.

The European leaders on Saturday said in their statement they were ready to support Ukraine in a trilateral summit between Russia, Ukraine and the U.S.

Putin’s senior aide Yuri Ushakov, who attended the meeting with Trump in Alaska, told state media that a second summit could be discussed, but that the proposal of holding trilateral talks between the two presidents and Zelensky has “not been touched upon.”

During the call around 3 a.m. Central European Time on Saturday, Trump told European leaders that he had been working 24 hours straight and appeared tired and irritated with Putin, according to the officials who took part in the call. They said Trump said he would only consider renewing his threat of immediate sanctions against Russia if the trilateral talks failed to deliver progress toward peace.

https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/trump-tells-europeans-he-is-open-to-u-s-security-guarantees-in-ukraine-347892f6?st=1W9nvS&reflink=article_copyURL_share

 

[muck]

I've no idea where the NYT sits politically,

It's the 'New York Post', which is pro-Republican. The text also makes that very clear.
The 'New York Times', which you were thinking of, is very much not pro-Republican.

I only posted the article to break up this absurd cycle of portraying any questioning of Trump's judgement on Ukraine as "Trump derangement syndrome". It's not a partisan matter. Plenty on the American right think he should finally take the gloves off.

he is trying, and in other conflicts getting some success. So for now I'm going to cut his some slack.

He's "trying" …
Sounds like something straight out of an unfavourable employer's reference letter. "He was trying hard to meet expectations."

Meaning well isn't the same as doing well. I'd ask you to show how Trump's "trying" has achieved more than his predecessor's strategy. One might even suggest that Biden's policy worked better. At the very least, Biden's strategy had the effect of not emboldening Putin. And to be clear, I'm simply taking Trump by his own words. Why should I not.

@Chazman mentioned Europe doing more, now/today yes, previously everyone was happy to follow uncle Jo's go easy take your time policy.

"Happy"? The UK and Poland in particular were chomping at the bits to do more. Heck, even that lame duck Olaf Scholz wasn't "happy" to swallow Biden's thinly veiled instructions.

Not a period anyone should be proud of, letting Ukranians die so Russia didnt collapse and Europe didnt pay more for gas.....

That's not what happened. (Refresher)

Its possible Trump is using the threat of forcing Europe to pay more, making the war less palatable to Europe, that means Europe might get serious about sanctions, oil etc. As a threat to Putin. Hope that makes sense.

No, frankly, it doesn't make sense. And I fail to see what convinces you you're actually onto something.

It's quite clear that Trump just wants this conflict to go away. He perceives it as a stain on his record; and as the quoted article correctly points out, he wants to re-establish trade with Russia as soon as possible.

 

[primer]

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How Fox see's it, auto amnesia unable to remember he expected a ceasefire, the ever shifting red line and earth shatering that Putin recited at no expense the election was stolen.

Trump just wants the Nobel prize. He was ready to perform all kinds of acts for Kim, whatever it takes.

Gotta dispute, insert Trump.

 

[primer]

A commentator discussed the withdrawal of US intelligence and how the political stunt north of Prokovsk was missed.

 

[muck]

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How Fox see's it, auto amnesia unable to remember he expected a ceasefire, the ever shifting red line and earth shatering that Putin recited at no expense the election was stolen.

Trump just wants the Nobel prize. He was ready to perform all kinds of acts for Kim, whatever it takes.

Gotta dispute, insert Trump.

The comments under that clip are quite revealing. The MAGA base is isolationist, which of course also impacts Trump's policies.

 

[Fluff]

It's the 'New York Post', which is pro-Republican. The text also makes that very clear.
The 'New York Times', which you were thinking of, is very much not pro-Republican.

I only posted the article to break up this absurd cycle of portraying any questioning of Trump's judgement on Ukraine as "Trump derangement syndrome". It's not a partisan matter. Plenty on the American right think he should finally take the gloves off.

He's "trying" …
Sounds like something straight out of an unfavourable employer's reference letter. "He was trying hard to meet expectations."

Meaning well isn't the same as doing well. I'd ask you to show how Trump's "trying" has achieved more than his predecessor's strategy. One might even suggest that Biden's policy worked better. At the very least, Biden's strategy had the effect of not emboldening Putin. And to be clear, I'm simply taking Trump by his own words. Why should I not.

"Happy"? The UK and Poland in particular were chomping at the bits to do more. Heck, even that lame duck Olaf Scholz wasn't "happy" to swallow Biden's thinly veiled instructions.

That's not what happened. (Refresher)

No, frankly, it doesn't make sense. And I fail to see what convinces you you're actually onto something.

It's quite clear that Trump just wants this conflict to go away. He perceives it as a stain on his record; and as the quoted article correctly points out, he wants to re-establish trade with Russia as soon as possible.

With z in the office on Monday, and metz saying negotiations are starting, I have to assume it’s not too bad. There are so many checks and balances, but for sure z is going to have to give up something, it’s what he gets in return that will be interesting.

Putin can’t come to Alaska, get gladhanded, then push on with killing ukr civilians. Trump isn’t going to wear that.

Of course trump is pushing trade, that’s what he has offered every waring party. Hell you could suggest Germany and France have a border ding dong, so they get -10% tariffs for 5 years. He can’t offer more war, putin already got that badge.

I guess we now wait for the Monday meeting, hopefully z is better prepared….

 

[primer]

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What they captured look like forced malnourished ADHD's.

 

[Chazman]

You're pointing out the problem well. Criticizing=turning on him.

I'm just trying to understand. You are disappointed/surprised/saddened that tens of millions of Trump supporters don't feel as critical as you do, so as such are without principles?

 

[Chazman]

And nearly ten years later, a German Chancellor pushed through starving Russia of their oil revenues against Trump's resistance, and without America joining the effort despite repeated protestations to the contrary. Which only goes to show whataboutisms explain nothing, and only ever serve the purpose of deflecting questions.

Yes, FINALLY!

Merz is showing signs of life. It's a good start and I'm glad to see him stepping up. Hopefully he can inspire more action.

 

[Chazman]

The comments under that clip are quite revealing. The MAGA base is isolationist, which of course also impacts Trump's policies.

It's useful that you were exposed to that. I've been saying that, like forever, but it doesn't really appear that anyone reads my posts. Lindsey Graham is considered a war monger, who never saw a war he didn't want to drag the US into. I didn't read all the comments, but what happens in Ukraine is quite a bit far down the concern list for the typical American.

 

[Chazman]

With z in the office on Monday, and metz saying negotiations are starting, I have to assume it’s not too bad. There are so many checks and balances, but for sure z is going to have to give up something, it’s what he gets in return that will be interesting.

Putin can’t come to Alaska, get gladhanded, then push on with killing ukr civilians. Trump isn’t going to wear that.

Of course trump is pushing trade, that’s what he has offered every waring party. Hell you could suggest Germany and France have a border ding dong, so they get -10% tariffs for 5 years. He can’t offer more war, putin already got that badge.

I guess we now wait for the Monday meeting, hopefully z is better prepared….

Well obviously negotiations are ongoing. Whatever was discussed Friday was discussed and disseminated to Zelensky and European leadership. It seems some things were agreed to and some things not. Sounds like a negotiation to me. It's too bad we get so sidetracked in this thread, because there is actually a lot to cover.

Yes, everyone will have to give up something.

 

[Chazman]

Let me just add, the biggest carrot Trump can offer Putin is to readmit Russia into the family of nations. Those around Putin want that, oh so much, if not Putin himself. The Russian military is not blind, they realize the horrific cost of this war.

To Trump's credit, he's gotten all the parties to talk. Putin Friday, Zelensky and whichever Euro leaders come Monday. Now that there IS a BIG deal. I know no one here can give him any credit for that - because you know, how you guys are. But it's a huge deal that no one else on the planet could have pulled off.

 

[primer]

It's useful that you were exposed to that. I've been saying that, like forever, but it doesn't really appear that anyone reads my posts. Lindsey Graham is considered a war monger, who never saw a war he didn't want to drag the US into. I didn't read all the comments, but what happens in Ukraine is quite a bit far down the concern list for the typical American.

Fox poll
Last year; A majority of 54% favors sending financial aid to Ukraine, down 9 points since January when 63% backed it.
Few days ago; Ukraine additional arms and military supplies rising from 30% in March to 51% today. The percentage of Republicans who favor increased sanctions on Russia has also jumped, from 63% in March to 74% today.

A new Pew Research Center poll released Thursday showed just 30% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents said the United States is doing “too much” to support Ukraine.


That number is down sharply from the 47% who said the same in February, and it’s the lowest it has been since the first year of the war, in 2022.

Seem to follow Trump.

 

[Chomiq]

https://www.npr.org/2025/08/16/nx-s1-5504196/trump-putin-summit-documents-left-behind

Papers with U.S. State Department markings, found Friday morning in the business center of an Alaskan hotel, revealed previously undisclosed and potentially sensitive details about the Aug. 15 meetings between President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir V. Putin in Anchorage.


Eight pages, that appear to have been produced by U.S. staff and left behind accidentally, shared precise locations and meeting times of the summit and phone numbers of U.S. government employees.

Professionals.

f***ing disgrace.