Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Junglejim]

He certainly can invent things - and he will. But several hundred thousand people know that their son, husband, father, brother never came back.

You are still not understanding an eastern mindset. I dont know if you played Starcraft, we (easterners) are the Zergs. The media can post all the dead Russians and their mothers would only ask "but did we defeat the enemy?"

This is why I dont want to make half baked wins against Russia and it must be defeated. The actions here will not bode well for future conflicts in the East. Mainly on main Zergs with a billion population and shitting out ships like a tourist in a truck stop in Texas after eating some shady mexican food.

Zelensky is not the one who got the bad advice, is not the one who made the wrong judgment on Putin, nor the one who overreacted costing innocent lives.

What happened after that meeting is not on him and I do think it was planned and not by him.

At this point I dont think Zelensky cares, as long as the weapons shipments re start. he would lick trumps balls if needed

 

[Chazman]

You are still not understanding an eastern mindset. I dont know if you played Starcraft, we (easterners) are the Zergs. The media can post all the dead Russians and their mothers would only ask "but did we defeat the enemy?"

This is why I dont want to make half baked wins against Russia and it must be defeated. The actions here will not bode well for future conflicts in the East. Mainly on main Zergs with a billion population and shitting out ships like a tourist in a truck stop in Texas after eating some shady mexican food.

And who will destroy Russia?

Wars end when one side destroys the other, or when stalemate forces negotiation. Simple as that. Russia has lost. They expended huge treasure, blood and political capitol and have gained almost nothing. They can't take Ukraine and Ukraine can't kick the Russians out, so now start the negotiations as I predicted maybe 2400 pages ago.

There are lots of parties who want the war to continue for various reasons, but Trump wants it ended, and honestly, as much as you guys love to hate him, he's the only one that wields a big enough stick to matter.

For half a century, the world was pretty easy to understand. It was a Cold War. You were with the US or you were with the USSR/Russia. EVERYTHING has now changed. This war has diminished Russia, not by a little, but by a lot. Europe is fragmented and China is isolated. There is now no center of gravity and the world is in the process of reorganizing.

Regarding, how these actions bode for China. I'm sure they are looking at what's happened and thinking, huh, Russia was a "world power", "second most powerful army" and look, they tried to take an almost a third world country and totally fvcked themselves for good. They will never be looked at as a super power again. China has internal problems, BIG problems. A war with the US, and I mean actual US forces, not a limited proxy war sending Javelins and HIMARS to brave Ukrainians, will end life as they know it - and they are well aware of it.

 

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[HorniePonie]

And who will destroy Russia?

Wars end when one side destroys the other, or when stalemate forces negotiation. Simple as that. Russia has lost. They expended huge treasure, blood and political capitol and have gained almost nothing. They can't take Ukraine and Ukraine can't kick the Russians out, so now start the negotiations as I predicted maybe 2400 pages ago.

There are lots of parties who want the war to continue for various reasons, but Trump wants it ended, and honestly, as much as you guys love to hate him, he's the only one that wields a big enough stick to matter.

For half a century, the world was pretty easy to understand. It was a Cold War. You were with the US or you were with the USSR/Russia. EVERYTHING has now changed. This war has diminished Russia, not by a little, but by a lot. Europe is fragmented and China is isolated. There is now no center of gravity and the world is in the process of reorganizing.

Regarding, how these actions bode for China. I'm sure they are looking at what's happened and thinking, huh, Russia was a "world power", "second most powerful army" and look, they tried to take an almost a third world country and totally fvcked themselves for good. They will never be looked at as a super power again. China has internal problems, BIG problems. A war with the US, and I mean actual US forces, not a limited proxy war sending Javelins and HIMARS to brave Ukrainians, will end life as they know it - and they are well aware of it.

I don't think anyone will destroy Russia. Genuine question though: What do you think the world would look like today, if the allied had kept trying to make deals with the Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany instead of destroying them?

 

[Chazman]

I don't think anyone will destroy Russia. Genuine question though: What do you think the world would look like today, if the allied had kept trying to make deals with the Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany instead of destroying them?

The goal was never to make a deal in WW2, it was unconditional surrender, always. Other than the French, of course.

This of course is different because as I asked, who will destroy Russia?

 

[Kassner]

Regarding, how these actions bode for China. I'm sure they are looking at what's happened and thinking, huh, Russia was a "world power", "second most powerful army" and look, they tried to take an almost a third world country and totally fvcked themselves for good. They will never be looked at as a super power again. China has internal problems, BIG problems. A war with the US, and I mean actual US forces, not a limited proxy war sending Javelins and HIMARS to brave Ukrainians, will end life as they know it - and they are well aware of it.

You’re not giving Ukraine enough credit.

They’ve the largest standing army and land mass of Europe and, with international backing, would be a formidable advisory for any military…. US included.

We’ve become too accustomed to the US steamrolling over isolated and hapless 3rd world militaries in the mideast that we assume all wars involving superpowers will end the same.

Putin likely fell for this line of thinking and forever screwed himself over in the process.

 

[HorniePonie]

The goal was never to make a deal in WW2, it was unconditional surrender, always. Other than the French, of course.

This of course is different because as I asked, who will destroy Russia?

You are right. Nobody will destroy Russia. Thus I am wondering, if Russia continuously encroaching in Europe is inevitable in the long term.

 

[Kassner]

I don't think anyone will destroy Russia. Genuine question though: What do you think the world would look like today, if the allied had kept trying to make deals with the Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany instead of destroying them?

If WW2 played out in today’s setting (the age of nuclear weapons), we would have to make deals with Japan and Nazi Germany.

 

[HorniePonie]

If WW2 played out in today’s setting (the age of nuclear weapons), we would have to make deals with Japan and Nazi Germany.

So, will this inevitably lead to all sides encroaching in their perceived spheres of influence as WW3 is naturally unthinkable?

 

[Chazman]

You’re not giving Ukraine enough credit.

They’ve the largest standing army and land mass of Europe and, with international backing, would be a formidable advisory for any military…. US included.

We’ve become too accustomed to the US steamrolling over isolated and hapless 3rd world militaries in the mideast that we assume all wars involving superpowers will end the same.

Putin likely fell for this line of thinking and forever screwed himself over in the process.

Oh no, I'm giving Ukraine incredible credit. Not only have they shown great courage and dedication, they have also revolutionized the way wars will be fought in the future.

 

[Kassner]

So, will this inevitably lead to all sides encroaching in their perceived spheres of influence as WW3 is naturally unthinkable?

Perhaps, but there will be a limit to encroachment.

See the Cuban missile crisis. Nobody wants to get that close to nuclear war again.

 

[Chazman]

You are right. Nobody will destroy Russia. Thus I am wondering, if Russia continuously encroaching in Europe is inevitable in the long term.

I don't know if Russia will ever have the power to seriously threatened Europe in a conventional war. Not to say that the Baltics for example won't have a future risk. But I can never imagine Russia rolling across Europe. I mean, they couldn't muster the logistics and organization to go from Belarus to Kiev when they still had an army.

 

[Chazman]

If WW2 played out in today’s setting (the age of nuclear weapons), we would have to make deals with Japan and Nazi Germany.

Probably true.

 

[HorniePonie]

I don't know if Russia will ever have the power to seriously threatened Europe in a conventional war. Not to say that the Baltics for example won't have a future risk. But I can never imagine Russia rolling across Europe. I mean, they couldn't muster the logistics and organization to go from Belarus to Kiev when they still had an army.

Yeah. I am not worried that Russia would take European heartlands. If they want to try in Finland or the Baltics, I am not sure, if Europe has the power and the will to take it back either though.

 

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[Chazman]

Yeah. I am not worried that Russia would take European heartlands. If they want to try in Finland or the Baltics, I am not sure, if Europe has the power and the will to take it back either though.

I'd worry about the Baltics a bit, especially if NATO/EU show an unwillingness to commit. Finland on the other hand, has a history of being a tough nut to crack, especially for Russia.

 

[HorniePonie]

I'd worry about the Baltics a bit, especially if NATO/EU show an unwillingness to commit. Finland on the other hand, has a history of being a tough nut to crack, especially for Russia.

As a Finn I am a bit worried. We have kept conscription and our (updated) doctrine of area defense, but due to simple numbers it has never relied on being able to beat Russia on the battlefield. It has been about a deterrent for causing excruciating pain and making an invasion not worth it. Russia has just shown that they don't care about the pain or how many of them die, if they just decide to want something.

 

[Telmar]

The goal was never to make a deal in WW2, it was unconditional surrender, always. Other than the French, of course.

This of course is different because as I asked, who will destroy Russia?

There were many deals prior to the outbreak of major hostilities.

Edit: OT

The "to the end" mindset was driven by the fact that neither Germany or Japan never proposed surrender conditions either.

EDIT: that being said, noone can with conventional weapons destroy Russia. The question is what can we do so they don't want to use their remoteness to threaten other nations. What can other nations to do to make such actions painful?

I see the real possibility of nuclear weapons being used as a threat. But it is not a good defensive solution. Only a dissuasive one.

 

[Telmar]

According to tatarigami_UA on "X" there are only small groups trapped. It was possible for the Ukrainians to pull out their forces. For some reason cannot post the link.

 

[Junglejim]

And who will destroy Russia?

Wars end when one side destroys the other, or when stalemate forces negotiation. Simple as that. Russia has lost. They expended huge treasure, blood and political capitol and have gained almost nothing. They can't take Ukraine and Ukraine can't kick the Russians out, so now start the negotiations as I predicted maybe 2400 pages ago.

There are lots of parties who want the war to continue for various reasons, but Trump wants it ended, and honestly, as much as you guys love to hate him, he's the only one that wields a big enough stick to matter.

For half a century, the world was pretty easy to understand. It was a Cold War. You were with the US or you were with the USSR/Russia. EVERYTHING has now changed. This war has diminished Russia, not by a little, but by a lot. Europe is fragmented and China is isolated. There is now no center of gravity and the world is in the process of reorganizing.

Regarding, how these actions bode for China. I'm sure they are looking at what's happened and thinking, huh, Russia was a "world power", "second most powerful army" and look, they tried to take an almost a third world country and totally fvcked themselves for good. They will never be looked at as a super power again. China has internal problems, BIG problems. A war with the US, and I mean actual US forces, not a limited proxy war sending Javelins and HIMARS to brave Ukrainians, will end life as they know it - and they are well aware of it.

You dont need to destroy Russia, but you can exhaust it to defeat. No more power projection and threats. In that way, you can defeat it without buring Russia to the ground.

The Chinese are not looking at what happened to Russia as a "World power" and "Second most powerful army" that is a western point of view. In the Chinese view, Russia is a second rate partner for them and economically beneath them, whose women are there for the sole purpose of being bar hostess in Asian KTVs. Russians for them are convenient as it allows them to rattle the western cages with out needing to raise a finger. Just look at their modernization, their military and tech modernization is more and more western in view and doctrine. They only keep Russian tech or weapons on cases where it is convenient or easier to just buy out than reverse engineer.