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Article Putin's Real Long Game

Discussion in 'All other military discussion' started by saiga, Jan 3, 2017.


  1. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    100 copies, not 1.000. The question remains if the army can finance its requirements. I think not.

    Nope, I didn´t compare costs, I compared deployment, with the F22 being in service since 2011 and PAK-FA running from tests back to the drawing board due to problems with the AL-41F1 engine.

    Edit: Since 2005, not 2011 - I´ve just checked that. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  2. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    It goes both ways, doesn´t it?
     
  3. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    Fiery Cross? Probably as a supply/trade route.
     
  4. diman Russian Federation

    diman Mi Lieutenant MI.Net Member

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  5. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    Of course he is... :rolleyes:
     
  6. ~Phoenix~ Bangladesh

    ~Phoenix~ Mi Captain MI.Net Member

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    T-14 Armata costs 3.7 million compared to 6.9 million of US Abrams or 4 million of Chinese VT-4/MBT-3000 or 4.5 million of Merkava used by terrorists or ~5 million of German Leopard.Its much more cheaper than others despite having a "quality over quantity" based design.The only reason you don't see it in much numbers because it was developed in 2014 ( hence the name T-14 ) and has started/is starting mass production.Don't worry,this tank is 20 years ahead of its time and NATO is yet to develop a capable tank to counter it.

    If you are wondering why T-14 Armata costs much less despite having such advanced systems,then remember that in a communist country,there are extremely low wages and no profit for the factory as well.

    Kira.
     
  7. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    Oh god. You're 15, right? You should know the basics of mathematics, right? Or at least... You know how to google, right? I mean present-day information not some illustrated fact sheet. I know it's difficult to imagine but RF army cannot afford a new main battle tank which would completely replace T72 despite being cheaper than Abrams. It's indeed a badass beast and it will be deployed to some units only not in those numbers Sputnik news and fanboys want to persuade me. On a side note, Americans found budget for F22 and JSF which cost a fortune... and yeah, a new class aircraft carrier, new class destroyer and a railgun... in a decade... just an example and even that I know that you'll deny it you cannot compare these too nations. You can compare present-day RF and Italy or Netherlands. Simple mathematics.

    And please stop calling soldiers of another country terrorists. I'm running out of patience here. Hate the game, not the player. You don't see me doing that despite that I don't exactly love RF and everything it represents.

    I'd give you a full actual report on Armata, and RF equipment as it is, budget including, just to spark a discussion this web site would long remember ;) with picts and "behind the scenes" info you won't find via google but that would require taking a day off and some real research work on my part... and I don't do this stuff for free.

    So I'll repeat what I said earlier: numbers, statistics, money. If you take a look at these, you'll know everything. Even if RF would risk a conflict with Turkey over one shot down fighter jet or with Europe for whatever reason. To give you a hint: no, it would not. Putin is a sociopath and has got Asperger's poor guy but he's also a godamn good chess player and knows his limits.

    Diman said something about another point of view but this discussion I find more and more ridiculous. In fact, it reminds me of the Ukraine war thread. And one has to work hard to achieve that level of ridiculousness.
     
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  8. diman Russian Federation

    diman Mi Lieutenant MI.Net Member

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    Naive, you try to convince him of something? Poor Russia isn't able to afford to have army, same it is obvious, it has no modern arms, and what is only for public!!!
    To America thousands of relsotron, destroyer Zumwalt class guide missile destroyers to that example!!!
    10 aircraft-carriers are in the sea now!!
    silly Russians created many years and designed the tank armata and forgot to count its economic indicators
    Also don't call army of the West by terrorists, they can't commit war crimes, it is promotion of spiteful Russians!!
    Enemies of the western democracy can only be terrorists!!
    After the Russian plane which is shot down by Turkey the sociopath Putin was afraid to launch war, he is a pathetic coward after that!!!
    Any educated democracy on its place began directly war!!
    he didn't begin to be at war only because of weak army it obviously!!!
    Russia can't exist without at least 10 modern aircraft-carriers!!! it is the fact!!!
    - Money is the main thing for army but in production F22 it is very expensive but it doesn't play a role
    - Money is the main thing for army but in production of an armat is cheaper than Abrams, but it doesn't play a role
    Also stop to argue when you argue you are similar to those people who doesn't agree, and these are obviously to fanatics and propagandists of RT

    :):):)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  9. ~Phoenix~ Bangladesh

    ~Phoenix~ Mi Captain MI.Net Member

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    50bad6815585291baae7ec223db92dc69c85c0f30917522375c40ce9acaa89f0.jpg
    :D

    Kira.
     
  10. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    @Phoenix This would actually made me laugh if I hadn´t seen your previous posts. Now it´s just sadly hypocritical: when someone tells me that something is „as mighty as always“ I can´t help myself, I imagine this:







    Here, a wonderful documentary, no need to thank me:




    The fact sheet tells me that the Admiral Flota Sovetskogo Soyuza Kuznetsov can carry up to 33 aircraft and 12 helicopters.



    There were 13 birds on board in Syria – 10 Su 33 and 3 mig 29, and this is unverified information: two were lost? I know about the one mig 29. Maybe you can clarify.
     
  11. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    @diman Just because is something Russian it does not automatically mean it´s the best thing in the world. Except Russian Standard Platinum. As much as I love, for example, the AK platform, I have no trouble saying that AK47 is garbage. Because this one is. For the record, I´ve trashed the M16 starting with those used in Vietnam until it finally managed to be as reliable as the AK platform.


    Thank you for the F22 link, you don´t know how much I appreciate the fact that – and this is a historical moment – first time I remember you´ve provided me with information I can work with, including some nice and reasonable words, though they were mine, not some obvious “1.000 copies – 20 years ahead” fairytale, or in case of the Ukraine war thread the nazi card.
     
  12. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    Going through your posts I realized you´re confusing fact sheets with facts. How else would you still manage to compare the costs of two (if I include China then three) separate military programs/products being developed in two separate countries in two separate national economies and being purchased by different political actors? How??


    Assuming that everyone here is able to Wikipedia-the-hell-out of everything, I´ll be brief. Both projects the F22 and PAK-FA started in the 80s and the birds have come a long way since then. The Americans still didn´t manage to solve the one troubling problem – costs. The entire program lost its supporters – I dare say half way through – and the production line was closed in 2011, I think, and that´s why the JSF happened – but the hardline critic in me tells me it´s going to suffer the same fate, while the F15, F16 and F18 are going to be still put in service in low intensity conflicts around the globe. The F22 wasn´t without issues; from grave ones, for example, defective heat treating (the same thing now with PAK-FA), over to the funny ones like losing its coat during a test flight in stormy weather…


    By the way, if someone here could find any footage of the F22 vs. Su24 over Syria, it´d be much appreciated.








    And here´s another downsize, and no – I´m not referring to the gay bomb :) Maintenance, as with American technology is often the case: long lasting and costly. If the production line will be reopened during Trump remains to be seen. There have been some rumors… I don´t know.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  13. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    Fact sheets vs. facts between the F22 and PAK-FA or the Chinese J20 or J31: The fact sheet tells me that PAK-FA is superior in every aspect to the F22. (I´d truly be surprised if it had been otherwise.) The fact that there are 186 F22 in action and 0 PAK-FA tells me something else. PAK-FA wouldn´t live to see its maiden flight without the current joint venture. India as RF´s strategic partner (yes – but they also want to buy some Rafale fighter jets) has expressed the desire to purchase approximately 150 aircraft (FGFA) but only if the project would be a joint venture – two versions of the same bird for two military powers. The order for RF stands, I think, for (another) 150 aircraft. PAK-FA, according at least to MOD reports after the MAKS air show in 2015, should have been put into service in 2016. That didn´t happen. The bird still faces navigation and engine issues – but I am willing to accept that many news come from the Indian side as it wasn´t satisfied with the last test flights. More or less, the bird is still being listed by the MOD as a prototype/in development with five prototypes flying.








    So please stop insulting my intellect by comparing something that cannot be compared. Yet. It´s as if I would dig up something from the US wet dream case buried probably deeply beneath Lockheed Martin´s CEO office and tried to make a case or arguing with a little kid that the cookie monster does simply not exist.
     
  14. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    China is a considerable regional power and as S. Korea independent and self-sufficient. However, on the fact sheet the J31 looks sure impressive, and as that it´d be a worthy opponent, but it´s still in development. Even AVIC doesn´t know what the future brings, so how can you two love birds, huh? Really, I want to know.


    My uncle told a priest after a Sundays mass once: “I believe it when I see it.” That sums this debate pretty much up.


    PS: Here´s some aircraft porn for you, guys and girls:

     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  15. diman Russian Federation

    diman Mi Lieutenant MI.Net Member

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    saiga
    Russian Frontal Aviation Arms
    Order of Battle


    Last update: 31. 12. 2016.

    http://www.easternorbat.com/html/russian_air_force_eng.html

    Indicators of the antiterrorist coalition air operations in Iraq and Syria in 2014-2016 years
    December 3rd, 2016


    According to French newsletter «TTU» in the material «Syrak: frappes aériennes et Big Data», although the air operation in Syria and Iraq is a key element in the anti-terrorism Washington strategy, analysis of statistical data on this operation is often contrary to the information campaign, which was launched from the beginning fighting in August, 2014.
    According to figures provided by the Pentagon for the 844 days of fighting it was completely 16574 sorties by planes of the coalition against the "Islamic State", of which 10 584 in Iraq and 5990 in Syria. At the same time 60079 weapons were used. Although 32.1% of combat missions in Iraq was committed US allies, they accounted for only 2% of sorties against targets in Syria, despite the extensive media coverage of the battle for Aleppo. In the theater of hostilities Syrian allies strikes have been concentrated in three cities in the north of the country, support the operation of the Kurds, as well as on the two highways leading to Mosul. Mapping places bombing must demonstrate that the Allies 'left' the rest of the Russian Syria and Syrian aircraft, with the exception of oil production centers, such as the Deir ez-Zor.

    http://www.ttu.fr/syrak-frappes-aeriennes-big-data/

    In November, the French Air Force tripled consumption of means of destruction, as a result of a deficit
    November 30th, 2016
    According to the French blog "Le mamouth" in the publication «Chammal: la conso de bombes x 3", the flow of bombs during the French military operation "Chammal" (operation on the fight against terrorism in Iraq and Syria - bmpd) in November 2016 increased three times as compared to October, or in other words, with the beginning of the battle for Mosul.

    Weekly summary of the General Staff of the French armed forces do not show a significant increase in the flow of bombs, but a priori it is correct, as the proceeds from the Chief of the General Staff.
    [​IMG]
    http://lemamouth.blogspot.ru/2016/11/chammal-la-conso-de-bombes-x-3.html


    German military relying on Russia, Ukraine firms

    [​IMG]

    http://www.dw.com/en/german-military-relying-on-russia-ukraine-firms/a-36767734



    Orders of the States Parties SALIS program on air GP "Antonov"

    Spain

    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/206024/206024_900.jpg

    Czech Republic
    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/206267/206267_900.jpg

    Slovakia

    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/206437/206437_900.jpg

    Poland
    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/206729/206729_900.jpg

    France
    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/207260/207260_900.jpg

    Hungary
    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/207383/207383_900.jpg

    Germany
    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/diana_mihailova/78277673/207617/207617_900.jpg

    These documents, if they put everything together, answer the question of how much, what, when and how much has been taken out of the group of NATO troops in Afghanistan, abiding there since 2001

    Knowing the initial composition of forces and means, it is possible to estimate, calculate how much is left, how many "lost" :)), etc.

    you can search in Google dpnnye you might be interested in, spend analysis, and you like the result

    China Shows Off Latest Military Innovations at Air Show

    http://time.com/4552848/china-aviation-aerospace-j20-weapons-arms/


    The first fighter J-20 made in the People's Liberation Army Air Force

    There were photos of the first cars of the initial batch J-20 that were admitted to the Air Force of People's Liberation Army of China.

    Currently known side number two fighter
    78272
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Enjoy


     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  16. diman Russian Federation

    diman Mi Lieutenant MI.Net Member

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    Here to you fresh promotion from nasty communists, about economy of Eastern Europe

     
  17. diman Russian Federation

    diman Mi Lieutenant MI.Net Member

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    Leve
    l of combat readiness of the French Air Force with splitting on types of airplanes

    draw conclusions

    http://www.opex360.com/2016/11/22/l...0h-hercules-de-larmee-de-lair-peine-decoller/

    Nearly 70% of volume of air transport of the French armed forces in 2015 were the share of An-124
    http://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-...us-30-tonnes-chaque-jour-voie-aerienne-114329

    The engine of the second stage for PAK PHA is brought to ground tests
    https://topwar.ru/100329-dvigatel-vtorogo-etapa-dlya-pak-fa-doveden-do-nazemnyh-ispytaniy.html


    Experience of fighting use of the Russian helicopters in Syria: analysis of the French army

    http://www.defens-aero.com/2016/01/russie-devrait-deployer-helicopteres-ka-52-alligator-syrie.html

    the document in Turkish in which losses of troops of Turkey around Syrian Al Woman in recent days are considered. According to it, the Turkish military lost 10 Leopard-2 tanks of the German production damaged, destroyed and
    captured, and also the American M-60 and several armored cars.

    [​IMG]
    The translation of the document into English is also given
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Preparation for restoration of production of the Tu-160 bomber

    https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/328225
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  18. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    Rebuilt? Strenghten? Ooooh, I was so wrong. You folks really wanted to help us. Oh my god, diman, you´ve just completely changed me. I need a hug.
     
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  19. saiga

    saiga Content Mod Mi.Net Supporter Content Mod

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    For the record. I couldn´t finish watching that bullshit.
     
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  20. diman Russian Federation

    diman Mi Lieutenant MI.Net Member

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    at you such sincere and hatred as at the 15th summer young man
    you the adult skilled person, it is necessary to be more reserved
     

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