Warfare Russia/Ukraine War

[Connaught Ranger]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Connaught Ranger]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Connaught Ranger]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Mike1976]

Theres a reason why France has a place in my heart. It's a small place in a small heart, but its there. also maybe due to the fact that Paris smells like piss, which reminds me of Manila for comfort.

So does Amsterdam, Berlin, Copenhagen etc

 

[Mike1976]

This is how all of Europe and UK should be.

Germany could send 20% of Leo2 production.

UK is sending thousands of the martlet missiles for drones.

Canada I think has sent hundreds of armoured cars.

Overall it would be nearly everything an army needs.

Need to retain enough in order to reduce buying from the US for our own forces as much as possible.

 

[Mike1976]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[thelistener]

If EU countries are disgusted with Trump’s ‘appeasement’, they should step up their support for Zelensky 500% and leave Trump to his own devises. Yet all that ever comes out of Europe is complaining, complaining, complaining……

Europe has stepped up their support by a lot. But the fact is the US is a superpower and Europe is a bunch of individual states.
If US is serious about peace then it's clear that appeasement doesn't work. Of course we can play this game of; if you criticise why don't you do it.

But the truth is that US doesn't want Europe to do it either. Nor would US even be open to sell arms to Ukraine through europe, and it would absolute blackmail europe on trade if Europe went rogue on Ukraine.

Nor does US want Europe getting stronger than it is, nor does it want European arms industry being able to meet the supply demands of European nations instead of relying on US arms industry.

Cmon guys. Russia should be imploding any minute now based on the Ukraine-bot echo chamber's ceaseless posting of Russian defeats. You got this!

That bothers you clearly, since nobody even alluded to such things in this discussion.

Fact is - Trump is the only outside entity trying to find a peaceful solution. It isn't easy.

Of course its not easy when Russia is not ready for peace negoations. And it never will pressured to be ready by the US at this rate.
The fact that US admin has said that they will withdraw from negotiations if there's no progress, is so funny, since Russia just needs to play time and trust that US gets tired without any pressure applied to them.
But I think you're not bothered by this at all.

And I am sure if the European powers approached him and said, "Donny please, after all this is our problem, not yours, let us handle it", he'd be happy to move along and focus on the other hundred things he's doing.

Naive. Superpower letting go of their influence. Not happening.
Do you really think Trump admin is doing this out of charity or something like that?
edit. i've stated this before. If Trump admin truly said: all yours, go crazy, no strings attached.
That would be fine, but more than likely US would blackmail Europe and some such.

 

[Chazman]

Naive. Superpower letting go of their influence. Not happening.
Do you really think Trump admin is doing this out of charity or something like that?
edit. i've stated this before. If Trump admin truly said: all yours, go crazy, no strings attached.
That would be fine, but more than likely US would blackmail Europe and some such.

Actually, I believe the current ideal plan would be for European allies to take care of Europe and their side of the Atlantic so the US can better focus on the Indo-Pacific. The world is in the process of re-ordering. It's happening. Russia can't even take Ukraine, let alone roll across Central or Western Europe. You guys can handle it, be more confident.

 

[muck]

Much to the surprise of none, negotiations have ended. And here is why: According to the 'Economist', Russia came into the talks demanding as a condition for a cease fire not "just" Ukraine's withdrawal from the territories which Russia wants to annex. Moscow also demanded that Kyiv should hand over Charkiv and Sumy in addition to their previous claims. (Source)

Can we finally put this revolting bullshit to rest now that Ukraine is the obstacle for peace here?

Brilliant 4d chess.
"Ukraine doesn't want peace" rants, but when Russia doesn't even bother, its meh.

This. Sorry, @Chazman, I absolutely do not understand your reasoning there.

 

[Chazman]

Much to the surprise of none, negotiations have ended. And here is why: According to the 'Economist', Russia came into the talks demanding as a condition for a cease fire not "just" Ukraine's withdrawal from the territories which Russia wants to annex. Moscow also demanded that Kyiv should hand over Charkiv and Sumy in addition to their previous claims. (Source)

Can we finally put this revolting bullshit to rest now that Ukraine is the obstacle for peace here?

This. Sorry, @Chazman, I absolutely do not understand your reasoning there.

I'm not sure I understand.

 

[muck]

I'm not sure I understand.

Sorry, my bad.

That was in reference to @thelistener's reaction to your reply. This is what they responded to your comment with:

Brilliant 4d chess.
"Ukraine doesn't want peace" rants, but when Russia doesn't even bother, its meh.

Putin got the response of a narcissist; oh I wasn't going anyway, thats why putin is not going, because i aint going.
Sure buddy

Sounds like Russia truly wants peace huh? This appeasement thing is really working wonders in bringing peace.

You're right to point out that Trump is a businessman. This comes in handy whenever he's asked to mediate a conflict that is primarily economical in nature. But it doesn't help when a conflict is deeply ideological, like this one. It is my firm belief that Trump either doesn't understand or doesn't care what the Russo-Ukrainian War is about.

If he doesn't care, it might be because he personally dislikes Zelenskyy because of his refusal to give him dirt on the Bidens. Or, more likely, it's because he's simply pissed because he could not yet deliver on his bold claim to end the war in 24 hours yet.

Trump hates looking unsuccessful. And frankly, it's the biggest liability about him as a diplomat. Trump will always prefer a solution that makes him look good over a lasting solution.

Now, about my original criticism of your comment: You've argued in the past that claims like "ending the war in 24 hours" are hyperbole and should not be taken literally. Well, but he is being taken literally by both sides, especially the Russians. Who'll act accordingly.

 

[thelistener]

Actually, I believe the current ideal plan would be for European allies to take care of Europe and their side of the Atlantic so the US can better focus on the Indo-Pacific.

Yes im sure the US would like that, if Europe follows US lead on big foreign policy issues. But US has not and never will agree to a "independent/rogue" Europe doing its own things, for example in Ukraine.
Is US open to european nuclear proliferation? no, is the answer. Let's get back on the subject when that changes.

If you remember what happened when Europe went rogue on 1956, on foreign policy things are quite the same.

 

[PEMM]

Much to the surprise of none, negotiations have ended. And here is why: According to the 'Economist', Russia came into the talks demanding as a condition for a cease fire not "just" Ukraine's withdrawal from the territories which Russia wants to annex. Moscow also demanded that Kyiv should hand over Charkiv and Sumy in addition to their previous claims. (Source)

And they said that next time they will demand five regions.

Unfortunately, fast peace with Russia was nothing but a pipe dream. Even in case where Ukraine is ready to compromise, they will simply make new demands to end the discussion.

 

[muck]

Unfortunately, fast peace with Russia was nothing but a pipe dream. Even in case where Ukraine is ready to compromise, they will simply make new demands to end the discussion.

Yes. Because they want Ukraine in its entirety.

And they've always been communicating as much to anyone with ears to listen.

I'm genuinely perplexed by the fact that so many in the West still feel a need to debate what their intentions might be.

 

[thelistener]

Much to the surprise of none, negotiations have ended. And here is why: According to the 'Economist', Russia came into the talks demanding as a condition for a cease fire not "just" Ukraine's withdrawal from the territories which Russia wants to annex. Moscow also demanded that Kyiv should hand over Charkiv and Sumy in addition to their previous claims. (Source)

Oh look @Kassner brilliant terms by Russia, thanks to, peace seeking appeasement, Trump. I cannot imagine how much worse it would have been if Ukraine was alone or worse, alone with Europe, trying to negotiate with Russia.

Sick joke, all of this. If some of y'all really think that Trump admins foreign policy will be studied as brilliant maneuvering in 50 years time, you're deluded.
And yes, I once again hope im proven wrong.

 

[HorniePonie]

IMO, In the end Trump's peace negotiations and denying weapons from Ukraine have made Russia bolder and the peace negotiations harder than they were in the end of 2024.

 

[Fluff]

Much to the surprise of none, negotiations have ended. And here is why: According to the 'Economist', Russia came into the talks demanding as a condition for a cease fire not "just" Ukraine's withdrawal from the territories which Russia wants to annex. Moscow also demanded that Kyiv should hand over Charkiv and Sumy in addition to their previous claims. (Source)

Can we finally put this revolting bullshit to rest now that Ukraine is the obstacle for peace here?

This. Sorry, @Chazman, I absolutely do not understand your reasoning there.

what did Kadjia Kalis say, Russia demands things its never had, in the hope we give them half, of something they never had.

I'm not surprised, now everyone has got a 'written' statement of what Russia wants. Now Trump can think about it on his flight home. Maybe play some golf, have a chat with Europeans, maybe with Saudi, Turkey, and come up with a response. Also it looks like they went on the same negotiating course I did many years ago, start high, you can never go up once you name your price. So now we have a price on the table. The Ukrainians can start to nibble some of it, like you dont hold and cant take Sumy, so the ask is worthless. take it off the table, with no swap or exchange.

some options from Trump:

too much
Not real
Get serious Vlad.
Ok lets meet and have the real discussion

Or trump kicks off, call Vlad out, and goes off to watch F16's being loaded onto Ukrainian transports.

my favourite is in bold.

From the old comments from Trump - I think Russia really wants Crimea, and wants Ukraine to recognise it 'forever'. its actually a cheap price for Ukraine, if Ukr got back some of the land Russia actually holds. 'Forever' would apply for as long as Russia has nukes, Russia exists, Putin is in charge. In international terms this is not that long.

 

[thelistener]

I'm not surprised, now everyone has got a 'written' statement of what Russia wants. Now Trump can think about it on his flight home. Maybe play some golf, have a chat with Europeans, maybe with Saudi, Turkey, and come up with a response. Also it looks like they went on the same negotiating course I did many years ago, start high, you can never go up once you name your price. So now we have a price on the table. The Ukrainians can start to nibble some of it, like you dont hold and cant take Sumy, so the ask is worthless. take it off the table, with no swap or exchange.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Chazman]

Sorry, my bad.

That was in reference to @thelistener's reaction to your reply. This is what they responded to your comment with:
You're right to point out that Trump is a businessman. This comes in handy whenever he's asked to mediate a conflict that is primarily economical in nature. But it doesn't help when a conflict is deeply ideological, like this one. It is my firm belief that Trump either doesn't understand or doesn't care what the Russo-Ukrainian War is about.

If he doesn't care, it might be because he personally dislikes Zelenskyy because of his refusal to give him dirt on the Bidens. Or, more likely, it's because he's simply pissed because he could not yet deliver on his bold claim to end the war in 24 hours yet.

Trump hates looking unsuccessful. And frankly, it's the biggest liability about him as a diplomat. Trump will always prefer a solution that makes him look good over a lasting solution.

Now, about my original criticism of your comment: You've argued in the past that claims like "ending the war in 24 hours" are hyperbole and should not be taken literally. Well, but he is being taken literally by both sides, especially the Russians. Who'll act accordingly.

Trump is far from a classic diplomat. He has big, bold ideas and is unafraid to visualize and negotiate them. And he will say things that will shock classic diplomats - and not only doesn't he care, but does it purposely. That's Donald. Now that Ukraine is on board, Russia will eventually get their "24 hours". Really at this point, it's up to them. They can keep grinding away, paying for more NORKs to show up and get slaughtered, continue sneaking their oil around and selling it for $10 below global market price. Up to them really. It's going to hurt when oil goes below $50 and Russia has to sell it for under $40. Not quite the $80 that has financed their war.

I wonder...who might be able to drop the price of oil with increased production? If only there were an ORGANIZATION with PETROLEUM EXPORTING COUNTRIES. And if only a powerful world leader could go where they live and have discussions with them on that and other things.

If you think Trump was just sitting with the Saudis and merely blew off the fact that Putin no-showed on the meeting he organized, and left it at that, then I've been giving you too much credit.

 

[Chazman]

Yes im sure the US would like that, if Europe follows US lead on big foreign policy issues. But US has not and never will agree to a "independent/rogue" Europe doing its own things, for example in Ukraine.
Is US open to european nuclear proliferation? no, is the answer. Let's get back on the subject when that changes.

If you remember what happened when Europe went rogue on 1956, on foreign policy things are quite the same.

There's a difference between allies coordinating and going rogue.

The 1956 Suez thing was going rogue. In the end, it effed over Hungary.