Politics Riots in Gaza and Israel

[Telmar]

Not suprised by the agression from Hamas...I hope Israelis on or off this board will get through all this.

However, I´m a little puzzled on the necessity to remove Arabs from their homes in that district of East Jerusalem even based on claims for the period 1948-1967.

When Moshe Dayan took East-Jerusalem, he let the Arabs to oversee the activity on Temple Mount and that decision was controversial but done to keep the peace. He knew how to win not only the day but the decade.

Israel has had many military and diplomatic victories in the last months. Embassies moving to Jerusalem and rightly so, recognition by Arab countries, even some pretty rogue ones...The Arabs, like the Jews are going nowhere: winners need to know how to win and the losers have to accept they lost.

 

[Fluff]

I was just gonna say that I was pleasantly surprised to read that so far this thread was relatively mild considering this potentially heated topic but I’m proven wrong.

Ideally, we would do without insults and focus on events, ongoing troubles and protests over there.

I admire your optimism....

 

[Faheka]

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[NZM305]

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I wonder if there will be prosecutions from the video evidence?

 

[Mike1976]

I wonder if there will be prosecutions from the video evidence?

Probably.

Can't say I'm surprised that this has started happening. The Jewish citizens of Israel have remained calm against Israeli Arabs for a remarkably long time despite terrorist attacks by this minority and their support for terrorists. I expected a reaction like this years ago already.

 

[Faheka]

I wonder if there will be prosecutions from the video evidence?

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"Israeli police announced that they detained 374 people, including 6 of those who lynched an Arab person in Bat Yam. It was stated that 36 police officers were injured at various levels during the demonstrations."

 

[BCNTM]

Something that I haven’t read in other medias but some protests and clashes erupted in NYC, DC and LA over the latest tensions between Israel and Hamas:

Protests break out across US as violence escalates between Israel and Hamas

Protesters supporting Israel and the Palestinians came out to demonstrate in New York, Los Angeles, Washington, D.C. and other U.S. cities on Tuesday as the violence escalated between the two sides overseas.

www.foxnews.com

Good on Fox for reporting, the rest of American or British medias are very much quiet about it.

Normal pro terrorist sympathizers were out in the UK - Jeremy Corbin and his ilk crying about Palestinians

Who says Liebour were not anti-Semitic

Violence erupts in London as pro-Palestine activists clash with police

Dozens more people have been killed overnight as Israel and Hamas fired retaliatory missile strikes, with the UN's Security Council due to meet today to discuss the continuing crisis.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Jake84]

Some observers and starting with an actual Israeli mayor are now warning about a civil war inside Israel.

Considering the latest violence and tweets shared here, I think this is not a weird fantasy.

 

[Mardonius]

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[FLYNAVY]

The videos from Iron Dome in action are something else. Two missiles are launched for every projectile predicted to hit a populated area, yes? The Palestinians clearly attempted to oversaturate Israel's air defence.

The Iron Dome missile defense system fires 1 missile at the inbound rocket if it's headed to a populated area. A second missile defense system fires a second missile to take out the launch site is the David's Sling & the Arrow defense systems. There is no soft knock warning with the Sling & Arrow targeting like there is with the aircraft targeting & bombing missions [soft knock is a tiny bomblet drop to warn of a destructive ordinance bomb drop to give civilians a chance to vacate the target area.] Notifications have been sent over the years to warn Gazans if they see a launch near their residence or children's school, hospital, mosque, etc. to leave the area immediately because a retaliatory strike will hit in less than a minute within 1 meter of the launch site.

 

[FLYNAVY]

Gaza seems to be having a bad night tonight. About 350 missiles have been launched so far that went straight up & came straight back down .within Gaza's border. Would suc if one happens to hit the sewage treatment plant & back up all the sewage into Gaza City.

 

[Faheka]

There is another issue that sticks in my mind. We do 24-hour reconnaissance and surveillance with UAVs on the borders of Turkey, Iraq and Syria, and we prevent attacks that may occur in the region before they even begin. Of course, it happens in attacks that cannot be prevented. Although Israel is much more experienced and advanced than us in terms of technology and intelligence, didn't they have the chance to prevent these missiles from being launched?

 

[muck]

The Iron Dome missile defense system fires 1 missile at the inbound rocket if it's headed to a populated area. A second missile defense system fires a second missile to take out the launch site is the David's Sling & the Arrow defense systems. There is no soft knock warning with the Sling & Arrow targeting like there is with the aircraft targeting & bombing missions [soft knock is a tiny bomblet drop to warn of a destructive ordinance bomb drop to give civilians a chance to vacate the target area.] Notifications have been sent over the years to warn Gazans if they see a launch near their residence or children's school, hospital, mosque, etc. to leave the area immediately because a retaliatory strike will hit in less than a minute within 1 meter of the launch site.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning. Iron Dome is an air defence system, it doesn't launch interceptors at launch sites i.e. ground targets. No doubt there's some sort of counter-artillery response, but that's not what I meant. I just looked it up on Rafael's website. Apparently, the system has a layered response algorithm.

If the incoming projectile is going to hit unpopulated areas, no interceptor will be launched. If it has some propability of causing damage on the ground, one interceptor will be launched. If there is a considerable risk for civilians, two interceptors will be launched to maximise hit probability. Interestingly enough, the decision can be made both automatically or by the operator.

There is another issue that sticks in my mind. We do 24-hour reconnaissance and surveillance with UAVs on the borders of Turkey, Iraq and Syria, and we prevent attacks that may occur in the region before they even begin. Of course, it happens in attacks that cannot be prevented. Although Israel is much more experienced and advanced than us in terms of technology and intelligence, didn't they have the chance to prevent these missiles from being launched?

Armed overwatch is pretty much restricted to ongoing operations on the ground, even in the case of countries like the US with a lot of resources to spare. Unarmed reconnaissance drones would probably pick up the preparations, but what are they supposed to do about it other than raise the alarm? Particularly in the event of saturation attacks with many launch sites becoming active at once?

 

[Mardonius]

Gaza seems to be having a bad night tonight. About 350 missiles have been launched so far that went straight up & came straight back down .within Gaza's border.

That's not true, actually. Iron Dome has failed in a number of areas, likely due to oversaturation.

 

[Faheka]

Ne demek istediğini anladığımdan emin değilim. Iron Dome bir hava savunma sistemidir, fırlatma alanlarına yani yer hedeflerine önleyiciler fırlatmaz. Hiç şüphe yok ki bir çeşit karşı topçu tepkisi var, ama kastettiğim bu değil. Ben sadece Rafael'in web sitesinde baktım. Görünüşe göre, sistem katmanlı bir yanıt algoritmasına sahip.

Gelen mermi nüfusun bulunmadığı bölgelere çarpacaksa, hiçbir durdurucu fırlatılmayacaktır. Yerde hasar verme olasılığı varsa, bir önleme aracı fırlatılacaktır. Siviller için önemli bir risk varsa, isabet olasılığını en üst düzeye çıkarmak için iki durdurucu fırlatılacaktır. Yeterince ilginç bir şekilde, karar hem otomatik olarak hem de operatör tarafından verilebilir.Silahlı üst izleme, ABD gibi çok fazla kaynağı olan ülkelerde bile, sahada devam eden operasyonlarla sınırlıdır. Silahsız keşif dronları muhtemelen hazırlıkları toplayacaktı, ancak bu konuda alarm vermek dışında ne yapacaklar? Özellikle, birçok fırlatma sitesinin aynı anda aktif hale geldiği doygunluk saldırıları durumunda?

As a result, the missiles launched have preparation periods, these periods. In the videos I watch, it goes through processes such as removing it from underground, loading it to shooters, making the plug settings. I guess that the reaction can be given in this time.

 

[colin traveller]

?????????????

 

[Mardonius]

Is Iron Dome effective against Hamas rockets as originally thought?​

Iron Dome always had a weakness.

It shot down 85%-90% of Hamas rockets in past rounds of battle – and that was out of the ones which were projected to land in populated areas.

As long as the volume of rockets Hamas could shoot in a single salvo was small, this was almost a hermetic defense.

But Israeli intelligence and national security officials had long warned that Hezbollah had a sufficient number of rockets to pound the Jewish state with over 1,000 rockets in a day, an amount that could pierce the Iron Dome shield.

This was one reason the IDF has been so careful when it came to Hezbollah.

The terror group has 150,000 or more rockets, including hundreds of advanced ones, which means that 1,000 per day wouldn’t even dent its arsenal.

Has Hamas now found its own way to undermine Iron Dome?

During the 2014 Gaza War, Hamas fired almost 4,000 rockets, but that was spread out over 50 days. It usually fired dozens of rockets in a day at most, and spread them out over the day. Its high was around 200 rockets spread over a whole day – and out of the 50 days of the war, it fired more than 100 rockets per day for only around two weeks.

Also, the vast majority of these rockets were fired at the Gaza corridor since Hamas had a limited number of rockets capable of reaching Tel Aviv and other areas.

But on Tuesday and Wednesday morning, Hamas appeared to succeed in firing more than 100 rockets within minutes, including a sizable number focused on Tel Aviv.

This is a jump both in the number of rockets being used against Tel Aviv, and in the terrorist group’s ability to fire a high volume of rockets simultaneously.

This is an ability that Hezbollah was known to have, but was thought to be some time away still for Hamas.

DOES THIS mean the Iron Dome is no longer effective? No.

It still intercepts the majority of rockets fired at Israeli population centers although some are getting through. The bigger question is whether Israeli intelligence estimates are correct that Hamas has only a few hundred missiles which can reach Tel Aviv.

If those estimates are accurate, then Hamas may have used up a large chunk of that arsenal, even if it has thousands more which can hit Beersheba, Ashdod and communities near the Gaza border.

But if Hamas has more of those longer-range rockets, this could impact Israel’s plans for this round of violence and especially the question of how long it wants it to last.

If Hamas can pierce the missile shield with 100 rockets in a few minutes twice in one day, how much more damage can Hezbollah and Iran do with the longer, larger and more accurate missiles it possesses?

Israeli decision-makers and military strategists will need to take this into account in deciding how long this can go on for and how quickly they will need to either escalate with a ground offensive to reduce Hamas rocket fire (clearly the IDF’s extensive bombing on Tuesday did not succeed in that sufficiently) or to find its way to a ceasefire more quickly and make new plans for the next round.

The IDF will also need to rethink the speed with which it will need to move in a conflict with Hezbollah, let alone Iran.

Is Iron Dome effective against Hamas rockets as originally thought?

Will Hezbollah, Iran learn from Hamas?

www.jpost.com

 

[muck]

That's not true, actually. Iron Dome has failed in a number of areas, likely due to oversaturation.

That's not what he meant, I think. There's plenty of evidence at this point that many of the projectiles launched from Gaza fall short, with some of them hitting areas inhabitated by Palestinians.

Kind of to be expected if the projectiles are of low quality or have been stored for a long time. If the propellant burns off unevenly, those things leave their intended trajectory rather easily.

Many of your comments seem focused on questioning the efficacy of Iron Dome. What gives?

 

[Mardonius]

Many of your comments seem focused on questioning the efficacy of Iron Dome. What gives?

I'm not questioning its efficacy. But its performance likely forms a central theme in Iranian involvement (planning).

 

[Faheka]

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