Politics Black Sea Thread

[nemipuka_]

The Russian annexation aspirations are spilling into the Black Sea. Recently their navy tried to order HMS Defender to go in line with this. But there is one problem - threats and bullying works only on those who are weaker than you. So despite all buzzing jets and shots furiously fired on the water, the British destroyer kept its course and went on.

Anyway, here are two videos from each side:

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[muck]

This is only remotely related to the premise of this thread, but have you guys heard of the explosion that happened there on July 5? Turns out that natural gas emerging from the sea bed exploded, the mud vulcano forming a new island. Pretty darn cool. But also a reminder of how resource-rich the Caspian Sea is, reaffirming its potential to trigger conflicts between the countries of the Caspian Rim.

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[morris]

^^^
Blowback from the Gulf of Mexico

https://www.militaryimages.net/data/video/318/318797-3262cd6e65b17301baba70b52812e81a.mp4

 

[muck]

That's genuinely scary.

 

[nicememe]

The Russian annexation aspirations are spilling into the Black Sea. Recently their navy tried to order HMS Defender to go in line with this. But there is one problem - threats and bullying works only on those who are weaker than you. So despite all buzzing jets and shots furiously fired on the water, the British destroyer kept its course and went on.

Anyway, here are two videos from each side:

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Putin openly said that even if Russia sunk the British ship it wouldn’t lead to WW3.
And he’s kinda right. Your clinically regarded chest-beating aside, the Brits are engaged in a cocktail of bluffing + trying to generate new excuses to sanction Russia as they’re running short on air. Need to continue playing The Big Game and all even though your kingdom is nothing what it was at the start of the match.
Imagine a war between UK and Russia. That’s right, UK will immediately hide behind NATO’s back for aid. As Brits like to say, “pathetic” (pronounce in British accent please)

Now certainly, Russia would be putting many things at stake by risking a military confrontation with a NATO country with as big of an ego as the UK. But one doesn’t need to look far to realise that the general trend both in Russia and China is to make all the necessary work and establish all the necessary prerequisites for such confrontation to become “affordable”.

And once it does become “affordable”, many kings gonna go naked, specifically in the western hemisphere.

 

[Fluff]

Putin openly said that even if Russia sunk the British ship it wouldn’t lead to WW3.
And he’s kinda right. Your clinically regarded chest-beating aside, the Brits are engaged in a cocktail of bluffing + trying to generate new excuses to sanction Russia as they’re running short on air. Need to continue playing The Big Game and all even though your kingdom is nothing what it was at the start of the match.
Imagine a war between UK and Russia. That’s right, UK will immediately hide behind NATO’s back for aid. As Brits like to say, “pathetic” (pronounce in British accent please)

Now certainly, Russia would be putting many things at stake by risking a military confrontation with a NATO country with as big of an ego as the UK. But one doesn’t need to look far to realise that the general trend both in Russia and China is to make all the necessary work and establish all the necessary prerequisites for such confrontation to become “affordable”.

And once it does become “affordable”, many kings gonna go naked, specifically in the western hemisphere.

In other words UK has ;friends' and Russia doesnt.

Good luck with that war, using 1970's aircraft v f35. I'm pretty sure Poland wants to get to the point of defeating any theoretical Russian ground invasion, before the rest of Nato arrives.

Also pretty sure most grown up nuclear states have pretty much agreed that war between them is just too dangerous.

But any way, I'm interrupting your wet dream, I appologise, please continue grunting.

 

[nemipuka_]

Putin openly said that even if Russia sunk the British ship it wouldn’t lead to WW3.

Oh my, if Putin said that, than it must be true. Also, the Russian ships are totally unsinkable, Russian air force are untouchable, Russian soldiers - immortal. So basically, the decision not to attack HMS Defender was simply an act of mercy. Because as we all know, no one values the human life as much as the Kremlin Godfathers.

 

[morris]

We already discussed this "storm in a teacup" in https://www.militaryimages.net/threads/western-europe-military-news.7268/page-50#post-162195

So why is this display of masochistic trolling here?

OMG please, stop!

 

[DTA]

Joker DNR got access through ukrainian site to documents with private information about participants of international exercises

"I decided to see how joint Ukrainian - NATO exercises are going. Therefore, I had to take away website of the ukrainian Navy https://navy.mil.gov.ua/ with some other resources, under my control. It turns out that cloud with secret documents about these exercises and lists of their participants, including foreigners, was linked to the site "

photos and link to captured DB here

Telegram: Contact @JokerDNR

t.me

 

[nemipuka_]

Su-30 are buzzing again, trying to enforce to everyone their imaginary "Russian borders" near Crimea.

Russia scrambles jets amid NATO drill in Black Sea | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

Russia's military has scrambled two fighter jets during a large-scale military exercise involving NATO members and Ukraine in the Black Sea.

www3.nhk.or.jp

 

[nicememe]

Su-30 are buzzing again, trying to enforce to everyone their imaginary "Russian borders" near Crimea.

Russia scrambles jets amid NATO drill in Black Sea | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

Russia's military has scrambled two fighter jets during a large-scale military exercise involving NATO members and Ukraine in the Black Sea.

www3.nhk.or.jp

They're "imaginary" only in your weird brain.
Crimean language - Russian.
Crimean culture - Russian.
Crimean legislature - Russian.
Crimean police - Russian.
Crimean politics - Russian.
Crimean diplomacy - Russian.
Crimean army - Russian.
Crimean ethnic identity - Russian.
Crimean citizenship - Russian.
Crimean economy - Russian.
Crimean currency - Russian.

Now explain to me which element of the above mentioned is "imaginary"?

 

[nemipuka_]

This guy is more deep into Russian nationalism than average Russian nationalist. And probably more pro-Putin than Putin himself lmfo.

Crimean language - Russian.
Crimean culture - Russian.

Chronology of Ukrainian language suppression - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Crimean legislature
Crimean police
Crimean politics
Crimean diplomacy
Crimean army

Non-existent.
Btw, with Ukraine Crimea actually had some of those things, as being autonomous. Now with the occupation, Russia is trying hard to turn the peninsula into one of its voiceless and obedient provinces.

Crimean ethnic identity

Mixed.
And spoiler alert - with the occupation there is no chance of self-determination. So yeah, now any fanboy of Putin can speak on behalf of the whole population of Crimea about identity. Those Tatars and and Ukrainians - just ignore them, they don't exist.

Now explain to me which element of the above mentioned is "imaginary"?

Every single one of them.

 

[morris]

The reality check.
Citizens of Sevastopol during a rally held in Nakhimov Square as part of the celebrations of the anniversary of Crimea's reunification with Russia.

 

[grassyknollgunner]

In other words UK has ;friends' and Russia doesnt.

Russians do have friends. Chinese and many others. Most of the countries in the World will stay neutral in case of conflict anyway... ?

Good luck with that war, using 1970's aircraft v f35. I'm pretty sure Poland wants to get to the point of defeating any theoretical Russian ground invasion, before the rest of Nato arrives.

Black Sea Fleet alone has 6 modern attack submarines, 3 missile frigates, 4 missile corvettes and 2 Bastion coastal defense brigades. Most of them entered service in 2010s and armed with heavy anti-ship missiles Onyx. The subsonic anti-ship missiles Brits got are nowhere near to Onyxes in terms of range, speed and charge weight. In addition another 5 missile corvettes will enter service by the end of 2022. I guess this will enough for the whole Royal Navy...

, Also pretty sure most grown up nuclear states have pretty much agreed that war between them is just too dangerous.

The only reason why Russian planes were flying above British ship was Russians wanted to demonstrate they spotted her. And by the way Defender was meant to remain "stealthy" no? ?

But any way, I'm interrupting your wet dream, I appologise, please continue grunting.

Nice sabre rattling coming from someone living on a distant Pacific island. ?

 

[Chazman]

Russians do have friends. Chinese

Ummm......just don't borrow any money from them, or they'll be owning your ports.

 

[muck]

That's hardly a reality check, morris, it's just a picture of a rally. Besides, not a hundred bullet points drafted by the apologists would change the fact that legally, Crimea is an integral part of Ukraine's territory – and that in exchange for Kiev handing over its nuclear weapons, the Russian Federation guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity in the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances of 1994.

The Kremlin pulled a turncoat and broke its promise to Ukraine. The peninsula was illegally annexed by Russian troops and incorporated into Russia's territory following a referendum which the Russian government's own human rights council described as dodgy – shortly before the incriminating paragraph was deleted from the office's website.

Considering how the Russian Federation recently enacted legislation giving Russian national law precedence above international law, and seeing how the supporters of the Kremlin always construe a right for Russia to violate international law from America's (perceived or factual) transgressions, I can't wrap my head around why they even bother to deny the obvious.

 

[morris]

You can go there and check yourself talking to people who love there, muck.
The Ukraine pulled a turncoat and broke its promise to Russia, so the token of friendship is returned.
Russian national law has a precedence above international law just like in so many other sovereign nations.

Besides the gift of Crimea to Ukraine was a commie deal, I don't support commies. Do you?

 

[Chazman]

So, the UK and Russia are certainly not going to war over Crimea. That's just more or less a wet dream by a few of our members.

But it would be interesting to ponder the unintended consequences of such a war. Let's pretend NATO didn't exist and it was UK vs Russia. The Royal Navy isn't what it used to be. So many social programs to pay for that ship building and aircraft purchases get the short end of the stick. However, the RN is still no push over, either. They could easily blockade the Black Sea and turn it into the Black Lake. There would be losses of course. And the British people will ask, why are we spending all of our money to support millions of people who hate the UK and not on the Royal Navy? So, there's that.

Russia has some high speed gear it would use, but let's face it, it's busy enough with Ukraine, Syria and Libya. It certainly doesn't have any interest in fighting a First World military. If you think Third World wars are expensive, well. The oligarchs who control Russia just want to make truckloads of money, not get involved in an honest-to-goodness war. I mean, are you kidding? Sinking a RN ship certainly will invest you in a REAL war.

And....this is all predicated on NATO not being involved. But it would be. There wouldn't be a choice.

 

[muck]

You can go there and check yourself talking to people who love there, muck.

That is totally irrelevant for the legal situation. The opinions that some Catalans have of Spain, or some Scots have of Great Britain, or for that matter, the opinion many Chechens and Dagestanis have of Russia, don't change their legal status. And don't act as if I denied that there are inhabitants of Crimea who prefer Russian rule. That's not the point.

The Ukraine pulled a turncoat and broke its promise to Russia, so the token of friendship is returned.

And which promise would that be?

Russian national law has a precedence above international law just like in so many other sovereign nations.

Many countries break international law if it serves their interests; few explicitely give national law precedence above international law, which kind of defeats the purpose of recognising international law in the first place and actually goes against it.

Besides, that's not the point. Your retort is moot. I was sarcastically asking why the Russian government insists on keeping up this farce if it could easily acknowledge having seized Crimea through the right of conquest.

Those states which do not support Russia's claim on Crimea, i.e. most of the world, have already made up their mind. Russia's allies, on the other hand, will not defect from her cause, as they too have made up their mind. In other words, the status quo would remain unchanged.

Besides the gift of Crimea to Ukraine was a commie deal, I don't support commies. Do you?

It was a legally binding agreement. If you wish to ignore all bilateral agreements struck with the participation of a non-democratic government, you might as well burn the map of the world in its entirety, Australia not excluding.

Besides: the non-Communist government of the Russian Federation explicitely acknowledged the borders of Ukraine as right and true in 1994, including the ownership of Crimea. In other words, that's a highly fallacious argument. And, no offence, a bit infantile at that.

 

[morris]

Reading all the argumentation above I found it wanting and can say without wasting too many words on sophistry and without fear of contradiction: Crimea is Russian and is staying so because that is the wish of Crimean people. Call me if this change.