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@muck how would you do it then?
Actually acting on one's threats would be a start. Taking a leaf out of Lord Halifax's book would be another.
So you wish this meeting never happened? This meeting happening was a fvck up? I mean, that's what you said.
All this meeting has done is give Putin more time to create fait accompli in Ukraine and increase his international standing by earning recognition from the USA. Trump's inviting Putin to bilateral talks in the US has only sent one message to the world: Russia has risen to pre-1990 levels again, is again on equal footing with America and is again in a position to force the US to concede to Russian land-grabs. Trump has granted Putin a diplomatic victory and earned nothing in return.

You've assured me many a time that Trump wields the power to destroy Russia's economy and halt its advance. How come Trump won't use that power?

How is the situation now any better than what it was under Biden?
The point of my post was something different. The point I was making was, even if Putin plays this off, his inner circle is aware that the game is at an endpoint. Perhaps more significant than we imagine. Dictatorships are powerful but brittle. Certainly there are moves behind the scenes that we are not aware of.
His inner circle is sworn to Putin and sworn to this war's goals. I'm not sure what makes you believe otherwise. Besides, Russian dictatorships are everything but brittle. Russia has been a dictatorship throughout most of its existence.

And what makes you sure there are "moves behind the scenes we are not aware of"?

Even 'Fox News' (!!!) says Trump got steamrolled by Putin, and calls the summit a failure.
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In 2022, we were mocking Macron's phone calls with Putin (and rightly so).
I fail to see why this meeting should be treated differently.
 
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Meeting was "fürn Arsch" as we say in high German.

Got played by KGB goons. Their online pawns already strut around commentary sections with a hard on.

While getting the red carpet rolled out the murdering tyrant bombed more civilians.

Mission accomplished.
 
Yes yes, i hope for peace too.

My issue is not so much that Trump is fumbling through this any longer, but his supporters turning whichever way the wind blows. Don't you people have principles that you believe in?

If trump says he will support Ukraine with arms as long as it takes for Ukraine to get back its territory; his supporters nod in agreement
If trump says its Europe's problem, his out; his supporters nod in agreement
If trump brokers a fair deal; his supporters nod in agreement
If trump brokers a shitty deal; his supporters nod in agreement
If trump blames Zelensky for not taking a shitty deal; his supporters nod in agreement
If trump is chummy with Putin; his supporters nod in agreement
If trump is though with putin; his supporters nod in agreement
No more sanctions for Russia; his supporters nod in agreement
More sanctions for Russia; his supporters nod in agreement

wtf?

Is that what you think is happening?

Trump's supporters are not a monolith, but....

They'd like to see an end to the war but they don't feel it's worth the US going to war on where the border might fall on a Russian speaking part of Ukraine. In fact, almost no one cares. They feel that Putin is evil and also feel that the Z man is a corrupt scam artist. If anything, all of this rigmarole the past few months with Putin, is to show the MAGA base that Trump has exhausted all possibilities with diplomacy before moving on to the next thing.

MAGA wishes Ukraine well and hates Putin. But in the end Trump's supporters consider this a European problem, not an American one.

But as we've seen in the past 3.5 years, there is little leadership coming from Europe on this. I find it perplexing that all of my European friends here, somehow ignore this and focus all of their intense hatred on Trump, MAGA and the US. Trump said to Europe, stop buying Russian oil and spend more on defense, literally, the Germans especially, just laughed and laughed at the unsophisticated hayseed Trump. Europe is still buying oil from Putin. I mean, WTF!

What happened to the European Stabilization Force of 30,000 troops, (really need 10X more than that)? Putin said 3 words and that just melted away. I did read that the UK is now willing to do air patrols over Western Ukraine. Western Ukraine????? Putin doesn't take the Western Europe leadership seriously, and why should he?

So, I feel that many of you need to get less hung up on what "you think" Trump thinks or what "you think" Trump supporters think and get your own house in order. Because it's possible, you all may get your wish and Trump walks away. He will also be able to tell his supporters, I did all I could do, you all saw it.
 
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Actually acting on one's threats would be a start. Taking a leaf out of Lord Halifax's book would be another.

All this meeting has done is give Putin more time to create fait accompli in Ukraine and increase his international standing by earning recognition from the USA. Trump's inviting Putin to bilateral talks in the US has only sent one message to the world: Russia has risen to pre-1990 levels again, is again on equal footing with America and is again in a position to force the US to concede to Russian land-grabs. Trump has granted Putin a diplomatic victory and earned nothing in return.

You've assured me many a time that Trump wields the power to destroy Russia's economy and halt its advance. How come Trump won't use that power?

How is the situation now any better than what it was under Biden?

His inner circle is sworn to Putin and sworn to this war's goals. I'm not sure what makes you believe otherwise. Besides, Russian dictatorships are everything but brittle. Russia has been a dictatorship throughout most of its existence.

And what makes you sure there are "moves behind the scenes we are not aware of"?

Even 'Fox News' (!!!) says Trump got steamrolled by Putin, and calls the summit a failure.
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In 2022, we were mocking Macron's phone calls with Putin (and rightly so).
I fail to see why this meeting should be treated differently.
We don't know what was discussed. I certainly don't at any rate. Next week Putin meets with Zelensky and the Europeans. Let's see what happens.

Again, not engaging assures failure 100%.

His inner circle is probably more ready for a deal than Putin.
 
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I had to check multiple times if that photo is even real, and questioning why I am more pissed at it than some of Trumps defenders. And no it's not because I think they were kneeling to Putin. However, they allowed themselves to be spun like that.
 
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View attachment 536645

I had to check multiple times if that photo is even real, and questioning why I am more pissed at it than some of Trumps defenders. And no it's not because I think they were kneeling to Putin. However, they allowed themselves to be spun like that.
Really??? Come on now. Proof once again, the left can't meme.
 
He will also be able to tell his supporters, I did all I could do, you all saw it.
This is the issue i tried to convey. If trump fails, and says "I did all I could do, you all saw it." You (and the rest) will actually believe it and defend it.

Well technically that might be true, if that's all he is capable off as a person and a leader, but that isn't an excuse nor should it silence criticism when you're the leader of a super power. There's a name for such leaders.
 
Actually acting on one's threats would be a start. Taking a leaf out of Lord Halifax's book would be another.
Sounds great, and 2 years ago id say go for it. But I'm doubtful it would work, Putin would rely on the russians stoic nature to keep going, wartime spirit and all that, and if Ukraine got significant success, then Putin would threaten to nuke Kiev. Ok China might try to stop him, but if he's nuts he could do it.

Putin let the genie out, and I think only he can put it back in.

Zelensky going to the white house on Monday suggests whats been proposed he might be able to live with?
 
I don´t blame Trump for not finding a deal. It isńt easy and this is not over yet.

But he is not doing better than his predecessor...and that shows that talking sh!t is not the same with doing sh!t.

And talking about how Putin admires him...I hope he knows these are ruses for the weaker minded.

Other than flooding Ukraine with weapons actually adapted for the terrain and this type of war, I don´t see how any western country can have a bargaining chip. But we are far from what is needed.

I´m curious what would happen if Ukraine asked Poland, Slovakia and the Czech republic to send the Ukrainian males back to Ukraine...because given the manpower situation there must surely be some Ukrainians thinking about it.
 
Zelensky going to the white house on Monday suggests whats been proposed he might be able to live with?
Sorry to chime in, but yes. In a normal world but in this bizzaro world stage we live in, im not sure. Given what happened last time, when one would have thought the details and such would have been worked out before meeting in the white house.

edit. some news from the front
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This is the issue i tried to convey. If trump fails, and says "I did all I could do, you all saw it." You (and the rest) will actually believe it and defend it.

Well technically that might be true, if that's all he is capable off as a person and a leader, but that isn't an excuse nor should it silence criticism when you're the leader of a super power. There's a name for such leaders.
What would you expect to see? I'm sure it's not over yet.


Also, something no one wants to address here, Europe could be doing SO MUCH more. You know it, I know it. Putin knows it. And actually, I think the European leaders also know it. But it feels so much better and is easier to post stupid memes about Trump and the US. I get it. But that's not helping anyone.

I'd like to see a new level of seriousness in Western Europe. I'd like to see serious increases in military preparedness. Now. Today. I'd like to see Europe pledge to only stop buying Russian oil, but to help enforce reverse sanctions on Russian oil. I'd like to see Europe say, "we will guarantee Ukraine security". So many things. But those things are hard. They are expensive. They take courage. It's just so much easier to post stupid memes and blame someone else.
 
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@Chazman & @Fluff

Even the New York Post, whilst fawning over Trump's abilities as a diplomat, offers criticism and demands Trump take action:
President Trump said he wanted to meet Russian dictator Vladimir Putin to “see what he has in mind.” “Probably in the first two minutes,” he added, “I’ll know exactly whether or not a deal can get done.”

Mr. President, you have your answer: Putin doesn’t want peace, he simply wants conquest.

Putin put on his best fake smile, waved for the cameras, then ominously pointed out how many parts of Alaska have Russian names. He rejected a ceasefire, and instead demanded long negotiations for a comprehensive treaty. This is the dictionary definition of “tapping along.”

While he says he wants more talks and ridiculously floats “next time in Moscow” — an invitation to be dismissed out of hand — his bombardment of Ukraine continues.

You’re right, Mr. President, that the killing must end, and Alaska showed that the only way to do that is to squeeze Putin.

Trump said that he would not sanction Russia further after the summit. But he should increase sanctions on Russia immediately — particularly secondary sanctions on oil and other goods that are keeping Putin’s war machine afloat.

The president should make clear arms supplies will continue, particularly now that Europe is footing the bill, and our military industry is benefiting.

Putin did not move on his demands. He must be forced to move — with cash and steel. Tariffs. Weapons. Strong security guarantees for Ukraine. Pressure is the only language Putin understands.


According to reports, Putin said that “if he wanted” he could take all the land he’s fighting for in Ukraine. What lies. He’s been battling over this territory for three years, and if he really had that kind of advantage, why would he be pushing for a “land swap” that pole vaults him to the other side of the Ukrainian front lines?

He’s pretending his victory is a fait accompli, when the reality is he is, at best, grinding along at a pace that would take years for him to complete his “special operation.”

We cannot afford to wash our hands of Ukraine, even if it is true that it is ‘Biden’s War’ and it would never have started during a Trump presidency.

First, your voters believe in the fight — 51% of Republicans believe we should be supplying more arms and military support to Ukraine (up from 30% six months ago), and 84% of GOP voters have an unfavorable view of Putin.


Second, while we understand you envision Russia as a strategic partner, a weakened Russia benefits your world vision. Consider what has happened already. Iran is providing drones to Russia, yet when you bombed Tehran’s nuclear facilities, Putin could provide his ally no help. He has alienated Azerbaijan, and you were able to step up and negotiate a peace deal between that country and Armenia. Putin has less resources to put into the Arctic.

Some advisers say this is a distraction from the real enemy, China. But standing up for Ukraine, showing strength for our allies, sends a message to Beijing. There is also a widening rift between China and Russia as Putin’s moves become more destructive. In Alaska, Putin again floated the blackmail of nuclear war, the “point of no return” as he said. President Xi already has bristled at such rhetoric, saying that China “opposes . . . the threat to use nuclear weapons.” China should make it clear that it is still unacceptable.

By rejecting a ceasefire, Putin wants to push a bad deal at the point of a gun. We fall for his flattery, his bluster and his threats at our peril.
(Source)
 
@Chazman & @Fluff

Even the New York Post, whilst fawning over Trump's abilities as a diplomat, offers criticism and demands Trump take action:
Are you trying to make a point beyond your (non) TDS? We get it already. You hate him. You hate his supporters.

So, tell me what you would do, because you have far passed the point of sounding like a broken record.

What would you do?

Simple question
 
View attachment 536645

I had to check multiple times if that photo is even real, and questioning why I am more pissed at it than some of Trumps defenders. And no it's not because I think they were kneeling to Putin. However, they allowed themselves to be spun like that.
Hell would have to freeze over before I accepted an order to roll a red carpet for Putin.
 
What would you expect to see? I'm sure it's not over yet.
On this topic. Trump supporters having principles/their own opinions and criticizing Trump.

Also, something no one wants to address here, Europe could be doing SO MUCH more. You know it, I know it. Putin knows it. And actually, I think the European leaders also know it. But it feels so much better and is easier to post stupid memes about Trump and the US. I get it. But that's not helping anyone.
We have gone over this multiple times. This "what about" is getting stale.
Yes Europe could likely do more, does that absolve Trump's policy in this topic? No.

I'd like to see a new level of seriousness in Western Europe. I'd like to see serious increases in military preparedness. Now. Today. I'd like to see Europe pledge to only stop buying Russian oil, but to help enforce reverse sanctions on Russian oil. I'd like to see Europe say, "we will guarantee Ukraine security". So many things. But those things are hard. They are expensive. They take courage. It's just so much easier to post stupid memes and blame someone else.
What are you on about? Europe is increasing its military as we speak. NATO just agreed to raise spending (thanks to trump for that)
EU just passed new oil sanctions last month.
Europe already has a "coalition of the willing" that will take part in guaranteeing Ukrainian security. Has been for months.
Can and should Europe do more? Yes. Glad we got this sorted out.
 
Are you trying to make a point beyond your (non) TDS?
You do remember you replied to me first?
We get it already. You hate him. You hate his supporters.
Obviously you don't get it, because I hate neither him nor his supporters.

Is your world view really so simplistic you cannot think in any other terms than black and white?

Jesus Christ, mate, get a grip. If an article in a pro-Trump newspaper urging him to act doesn't prove to you this not a partisan matter, what freaking will?!
So, tell me what you would do, because you have far passed the point of sounding like a broken record.

What would you do?

Simple question
I've already said numerous times what I would have Trump do. The simple question is—one which you have kept evading—why won't he do it? It was you, if you'll remember, who's been riding these past months on two arguments:

First, Trump has the means to break Russia.

And deux, it's all part of a greater plan by Trump.

Well, why won't he break Russia? And when is this great plan of his going to unfold?

You do remember that Trump has been saying he wants peace now—not a just peace, but simply peace at all costs—to stop the killing? Is it really so difficult for you to fathom that he's sending conflicting messages by saying so whilst simultaenously giving Putin more time, and more time, and more time to continue the killing?

Why on earth do you seem to think its unfair to hold Trump to his own words?
 
You do remember you replied to me first?

Obviously you don't get it, because I hate neither him nor his supporters.

Is your world view really so simplistic you cannot think in any other terms than black and white?

Jesus Christ, mate, get a grip. If an article in a pro-Trump newspaper urging him to act doesn't prove to you this not a partisan matter, what freaking will?!

I've already said numerous times what I would have Trump do. The simple question is—one which you have kept evading—why won't he do it? It was you, if you'll remember, who's been riding these past months on two arguments:

First, Trump has the means to break Russia.

And deux, it's all part of a greater plan by Trump.

Well, why won't he break Russia? And when is this great plan of his going to unfold?

You do remember that Trump has been saying he wants peace now—not a just peace, but simply peace at all costs—to stop the killing? Is it really so difficult for you to fathom that he's sending conflicting messages by saying so whilst simultaenously giving Putin more time, and more time, and more time to continue the killing?

Why on earth do you seem to think its unfair to hold Trump to his own words?
Will Europe help break Russia?
 
Will Europe help break Russia?
US just last month refused to join new EU sanctions on Russian oil

This is me right now, i cant with you
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excuse my interruption
 
Will Europe help break Russia?
Yes.

But your question is hardly an answer to my question, is it?

Since this issue seems so important to you, maybe you could also address the many wrenches Biden and Trump have been throwing in Europe's gears. We've been about this before. Biden has blocked numerous attempts of European countries to supply more potent arms, citing ITAR or fears of escalation. Trump pressured Europe not to lower the price cap on Russian oil, and sabotaged the May ultimatum issued by Starmer, Macron and Merz.
 

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