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Politics Macron's Shame ...

I agree with you Colin, it’s disgraceful and unacceptable.

The situation in France ever since the peak of the Yellow Vests in Dec 2018 has been quite chaotic and now it’s Macrons pension reform that’s putting people on the streets for weeks on end.

Regarding the police, I was shocked at the disproportionate use of force during the YV movement. Many protesters lost an eye. Some a hand to grenades. The reason? Of course some of the protesters were quite violent and the head of state had given orders to handle the situation by forces If necessary.

I dislike what a few cops have done to some protesters because some of these protesters didn’t even do anything illegal or criminal beside shouting anti-Macron slogans.

As a conclusion though I feel for the cops/police/riots police these days. They’re understaffed and their work conditions are awful.

After the 2015 Charlie Hebdo attacks and even more so the Bataclan people in France were overwhelmingly pro-police and I was too then. Their last handling of some protests did bother me a bit though.

@Mordoror @Ivan le Fou @Telmar
 
It is commonly accepted now that we have lost our Crowd Control experience while it was praised abroad before.

Now the situation with demonstrations every week in every town of France for 2 years now have made the things complicated. The LEOs are overstreched so the IntMint relies to elements that are NOT formed for CC but for urban delinquency (the famous BAC) so are more kinetic and act with less restrain that pure CC units (CRS, GM).

A part of the protestors/demonstrations are infiltrated by Black Blocks and other idiots looking for fight .... but when the fight becomes a bit hard, they are experienced to avoid police. Casual protestors are not

Our police forces are still using CC equipment that was forbidden elsewhere (the GLI-F4 grenade with is a CC grenade has still 20 g of TNT within .... the one who takes it by hands is sure to lose some fingers)

Some prefets, especially after the Arc de Triomphe defacing last year gave orders to be more rough with the protestors. Probably not the best thing to do if there are no controle behind and no clear RoE of the forces. You don't give a free pass to exhausted troops.

All in all, i'd say that a part of the blame lays on the hierarchy, a part of the "grunts" that are tired and so less professional, a part on the doctrine that changed toward a more kinetic approach since Sarkozy and a part on some of the protestors that are here to break things and act in a silly way (again if a CRS captain voice to get away from a street, you get away from the street, you don't pick up a grenade and don't throw stuff at CC policemen).

We are also in a climate and situation where any state symbol is a fair game either for criticism or destruction. When people begin to call the gov "authoritarian" the meaning of the words is lost and the mindset is let's say "special".

Our society seems to need to vent something. I don't know exactly what because it depends to whom you are talking to. But somebody has to find a way to appease things quickly...

PS : to put things in perspective : 11 to 15% of people think now that vandalism is a justified protest mean.
There were 23 millions of working hours overdue to the police in 2019 (of which 3.5 million were paid)
2000-3000 demonstrators were wounded during the YJ year of protest. For roughly the same number (1500-2000) of LEOs
 
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I have been angry at the continous increase of violence in protests. Police officers are often on life threatening missions and constantly risk being overmanned. Damage of property is out of Control every time the yellow vests are out. But every one is more agressive and police réactions are sharper.

That being said, I really have an issue with what is being used in crowd control. I remember times where water canons would do the trick. These grenades and Ball Guns are very dangerous.

Not to mention management.. What a disaster this operation was... Let's face it: being a cop means long working hours, harsh conditions, low pay... Who wants to do this ?
 
Jake84 said:
a conclusion though I feel for the cops/police/riots police these days. They’re understaffed and their work conditions are awful.
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And what other options do they have ? Leave the force but then what else will they do plus they ll be a queue ready to take their place . It really is a case of working class against working class while the culprits who caused such discontent sit in their mansions ignorant of their actions .
 
Telmar said:
Not to mention management.. What a disaster this operation was... Let's face it: being a cop means long working hours, harsh conditions, low pay... Who wants to do this ?
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As above telmar . People are desperate , struggling to make ends meet . They ll always be someone willing to do it .
 
bfc1001 said:
As above telmar . People are desperate , struggling to make ends meet . They ll always be someone willing to do it .
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Yep... But cops need to be trained and motivated professional. It should'nt be because your skills don't match any job on the market.
 
The violence displayed by the police and anti-riot forces has been troubling.

Seeing them going after "generic" protesters is, in itself, bread and butter. Rioters/Antifa/Black Blocks/etc... creating and aggravating troubles, can easily hide among "generic" protesters and use them as human shields.

There were quite a few of these instances during the YV movement, and it got worse as it dragged in time. People were getting tired and frustrated by Macron's government and disgusting insults thrown at them (I guess nobody likes being called an uneducated, brown shirt rube).
I am not seeing as many now, or it seems the violence is not manifesting itself homogeneously. Some cities appear to be more violent than others (I have the impression Nantes is, somehow, more violent than Paris for instance). But don't take my words for it, I haven't really been following the recent protests.

What has been made clear is that the discontent has generalized, spreading among every professions one may not be used to see going on strike and/or demonstrating. So far I am aware of: lawyers, firefighters, forensics, medical staff, sewer cleaners (or whatever the name of that job is), etc...

Now, the police forces have also demonstrated recently to defend their retirement benefits, and a few years ago to get better working conditions. Though they got what they asked regarding their pensions (I don't know to what extent though), the promises made under Hollande to improve their working conditions are yet to manifest themselves in a tangible way (have these promises even been kept?).

But several things are working against the police.
What could be perceived as a lack or absence of solidarity with the people, while the reforms undertook by the government are impacting everybody.
They are tired, exhausted and overstretched.
Lack of professionalism from a number within their ranks. The reasons may be numerous: lack of motivation, insufficient training, weak moral fiber, lack of self-control, etc...
Some units sent to deal with protesters are not meant to carry out crowd control missions (BAC).
ROEs that are, possibly, reckless or that, at least, are not allowing any form of deescalation.

Sure they are "doing their job", maybe they are doing it the best they can, but it does not change the fact that what is being shown on screen is a melange of:
-mutilated protesters.
-some women being dragged on the ground by their hair.
-policemen beating people lying on the ground.
-policemen beating firefighters.
-etc...

It does not mean the police as a whole is now an out of control institution though, or that all the policemen and LEOs are trigger happy cowboys.
 
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Telmar said:
I have been angry at the continous increase of violence in protests. Police officers are often on life threatening missions and constantly risk being overmanned. Damage of property is out of Control every time the yellow vests are out. But every one is more agressive and police réactions are sharper.

That being said, I really have an issue with what is being used in crowd control. I remember times where water canons would do the trick. These grenades and Ball Guns are very dangerous.

Not to mention management.. What a disaster this operation was... Let's face it: being a cop means long working hours, harsh conditions, low pay... Who wants to do this ?
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Some will say it is not the weapon that causes harm but the man manning the weapon. Statisticaly it looks true (more wounded with LBD when used by police of the PPP or BAC units than when used by Gendarmes Mobiles .... in a proportion of 1 to 10)
It lays down to formation and the specificities of the job.

There are several layers of issue though
The training and formation of some of the police elements deployed now on each demonstration (in fact, given how are streched the CC specific units since several companies both of CRS and GM were disbanded in 2008-2010, the not specialized police units are forming the majority of the "blue" going after protestors in each demonstration). These police elements (PPP, BAC, BSP....) are not CC trained... They are trained for urban disorder and thggery. It is not the same thing.

The equipment : LBDs have been introduced under Sarkozy. While useful in a urban riot control situation you can see regularly in our suburbs (and i emphasize on the words urban riot) they should be deployed as last ressort during CC. Alas with the tool comes the habit to use the tool. Same for several other equipments (plastic pellets GLI-F4 grenades, shock anti-encirclement grenades ..... ) furthermore when these not lethal systems are filled with life explosive (RDX or TNT) which make them less than lethal rather than not lethal at all.

The ROE. They are clear. They are written. They are reminded to the troops a bunch of time. Yet you can see that in a bunch of events, the use of the aforementaioned devices leading to wounds is done outside the rules of use and rules of engagement. It questions again the formation but also the selection of the policemen send for CC and the turn over of the units/ rest time/moral etc ... This is macro management but it is important and seems left aside by the institution.

Escalation came both ways. Agri pipe bombs were thrown against plain clothes cops without CC equipment during the first days of the YJ. Firecrackers glued with nails were thrown against CC units. As were acid filled bottles and other stuff. We don't have intermediate response equipment. It is either the baton and CS (which won't work against people willing to fight) or not so no-lethal stuff. BTW the water cannon have a limited use because it was deemed that chance of injuries are great due to water pressure. Which is ironical but true. In German they use them widely though. Other cultures
 
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Out of interest where does all this leave France politically ? I mean surely macron is not going to be re elected and with the collapse of mainstream party appeal options look limited to the point that I could see many spoiling their voting papers as there's simply no one left to vote for .
 
bfc1001 said:
Out of interest where does all this leave France politically ? I mean surely macron is not going to be re elected and with the collapse of mainstream party appeal options look limited to the point that I could see many spoiling their voting papers as there's simply no one left to vote for .
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There is a phenomenon currently taking place, more and more people (elected ones, ministers, senators, members of parliament, etc...) from his party (LREM) are leaving. Though the reasons may vary from one another, there is one that tends to come back fairly often: there is something rotten in the kingdom of LREM.

As for the votes, there are municipal elections that are supposed to take place soon. I have glided over the subject only from very far away, but apparently the government is looking into a new way to count votes that would favor Macron's party.
That's what I got from it, but as I said I barely paid attention to that subject. I may be dead wrong and/or miss the point.
 
France's cops, like most cops nowadays, are underpaid and overworked. Their suicide rates speak volumes of how tough their life has been as of late. Now imagine having to face scores of protesters every week for months on end, many of whom belonging to a generation to whom attacking cops has become a recreational pursuit.

And even if you've happened to think yourself into the shoes of one of the lucky few who's not been pelted with stones yet: What do you think, how many insults can you swallow before you blow a fuse?
 
I don't know if this is similar or not, but the left here in the States is dogmatically anti-cop. DeBlasio in NYC is a great example, there are many, many others. That said, it's hard to imagine a scenario where cops were beating up protesting firefighters...
 
Am surprised that none of the protestors have descended on Marcon's home .
 
muck said:
France's cops, like most cops nowadays, are underpaid and overworked. Their suicide rates speak volumes of how tough their life has been as of late.
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Suicide Rate by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com worldpopulationreview.com

Overall suicide rates along with Belgium are the highest in Western Europe . A stressed society and macron speaks of " reform " which pretty much means work longer but you might get a small tax cut which will benefit no one but the upper echelons of society . But this is all that matters to these people , self obsessed social climbers . Bottom of the list makes interesting reading ........ Money does not breed happiness .
 
Any systemic antipathy from the Police towards the Fire Service in France ? Have heard it from several firefighters here in the US that Police and Firemen don't have quite the fraternal collegiality that one might expect.
 
riderboy said:
I don't know if this is similar or not, but the left here in the States is dogmatically anti-cop. DeBlasio in NYC is a great example, there are many, many others. That said, it's hard to imagine a scenario where cops were beating up protesting firefighters...
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As far as I know we do not have political figures who are, as it is the case in the US, openly anti-LEO.
That being said, I can't remember of any genuinely pro-LEO either.


www.theguardian.com

French police clash with firefighters during Paris protest

Riot police fire teargas and use batons against firefighters asking for pay rise
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

A number of recent videos showing what appeared to be unjustified police violence at other demonstrations have sparked outrage on social media. After scores of serious injuries from police weapons during the gilets jaunes anti-government protests last year, and complaints of heavy-handedness at pensions protests, lawyers have begun accusing the French president, Emmanuel Macron, of presiding over the most heavy-handed approach to street demonstrations in France since the protests of May 1968.
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Euroamerican said:
Any systemic antipathy from the Police towards the Fire Service in France ? Have heard it from several firefighters here in the US that Police and Firemen don't have quite the fraternal collegiality that one might expect.
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Not to my knowledge. Firefighters are universaly respected (bar the usual idiots) and there are no issue in day to day job with the police. They often work together, our furemen being also paramedics that come on car accidents, bar brawls etc....
 
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