Other Post M16 Rifle in Delayed Blowback: Possible?

[Braith-Wafer]

Is it possible to manufacture an M16 type rifle using Lever/Roller Delayed Blowback?

Just asking becouse the TKB-517 was an extremely sucsessful rifle and used Lever-Delayed Blowback for its operation like the FAMAS which is also very reliable.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as74-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as21-e.htm

I do like this new HK416 but would like it more if it used Roller-Delayed Blowback
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as75-e.htm

 

[Hollis]

There is already the original design and gas piston, why delay blow back?

 

[Braith-Wafer]

Becouse for a number of reasons:

Faster firing, (EG, The FAMAS has the fastest ROF for a rifle)

Slightly more powerful since the gas pressure has two uses, To reload the weapon and to push the bullet from the barrel. The less uses the gas pressure has, The higher the velocity of the round (Wonder why Revolvers are more powerful/Bolt action rifles are still used?)

Simpler in design(Especially for SMGs), The STG45 was cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than the STG44 although it was abandoned. Same with Korobov's TKB-517 that turned out more sucsessful than the AK-47.

 

[Hollis]

Becouse for a number of reasons:

Faster firing, (EG, The FAMAS has the fastest ROF for a rifle)

Slightly more powerful since the gas pressure has two uses, To reload the weapon and to push the bullet from the barrel. The less uses the gas pressure has, The higher the velocity of the round (Wonder why Revolvers are more powerful/Bolt action rifles are still used?)

Simpler in design(Especially for SMGs), The STG45 was cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than the STG44 although it was abandoned. Same with Korobov's TKB-517 that turned out more sucsessful than the AK-47.

Ever notice on revolvers, excluding the 18XX nagant, there is a lot of gas leakage between the cylinder and barrel. At the ranges that are normally used it is probably not important. Look at auto pistols and revolvers, the magazine design pushed autos ahead of revolver not power or range. In fact when the 9mm became very popular, it showed power was not a consideration. 9 mm is the same ballistics as a 38 Special which was abandoned for the .357 Mag, and there were considerations of even going to the .41 Mag.

Faster is not necessary any better. They have put rate reducers in MG42, Burst kits on rifles, stuff that cut down on excessive and ineffective fire. I am not saying that the design is bad by any means. I have a few rifles that are designed that way.

Even for the US Military to change there are so many other considerations. Even gas piston uppers may not happen for standard issues.

On rate of fire, there are other limitations, how many magazines one can carry or the amount of ammo is probably the biggest limitations for a infantry soldier.

Also with rate of fire there is recoil and controllability of the fire arm, bursting is critical or some other method.

Maybe instead of converting the m4, why not a all new rifle. There is a lot of talk of designing a new battle rifle. HK as some designs, also there is what cartridge to be used.

The other problem that a new rifle has to overcome is cost benefit ratio, the M16 and it variants is a tested and proven design.

BTW do you know why the STG45 was abandoned?

One of the oldest AR 16 variants was the Armalite AR 180, it has a gas piston upper, but never got any where with the military. It was also less expensive to make.

 

[Braith-Wafer]

AND i have heard about corosion and fouling of the gas port/tube that has caused major probs to the M16/M4.

 

[Cutaway]

Becouse for a number of reasons:

Faster firing, (EG, The FAMAS has the fastest ROF for a rifle)

Slightly more powerful since the gas pressure has two uses, To reload the weapon and to push the bullet from the barrel. The less uses the gas pressure has, The higher the velocity of the round (Wonder why Revolvers are more powerful/Bolt action rifles are still used?)

Simpler in design(Especially for SMGs), The STG45 was cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than the STG44 although it was abandoned. Same with Korobov's TKB-517 that turned out more sucsessful than the AK-47.

I long since ceased to be suprised by the bone comments this bloke makes - under whichever guise he posts.

 

[Drone_pilot]

I long since ceased to be suprised by the bone comments this bloke makes - under whichever guise he posts.

WHY ?

 

[Bombardier]

Going off topic a little but....Braith-Wafer please tell me why you have registered the three usernames below.
And while your at it, pick the one you would like to use as I will be freezing the other two.
We do not allow multiple usernames on this site, not to mention the obvious fact that their is no need for them.
Let me know which one you require if you dont get back to me I will delete Bashabasher and Riddick, and if I find you creating anymore usernames I will ban you !.
Consider this a friendly warning

Bashabasher
Braith-Wafer
Riddick

 

[Stoats]

Okay, this chappie registers on as many military related forums as possible and posts the same bone questions, displaying a striking lack of knowledge. He has a pantheon of various handles/sock puppets he uses. He will often get an adequate response on one forum which demolishes his argument, and then he will go and post the same thing on another forum.

Okay, to respond to his points one at a time:


1. In theory anything is possible, but there is absolutely no point in building an M-16 in delayed blowback mode. First of all, the upper receiver is tubular, which is not suited to any type of operation other than rotating bolt. all recent designs use a gas operated rotating bolt; there is a reason for this.

2. an experimental rifle can never be considered "successful"; by definition only a production rifle can be considered successful.


3. Delayed blowback is a very cheap solution for producing a full calibre self loading rifle. its main proponent, HK, has dropped it in favour of gas operated rotating bolt operation. This should probably be telling you something. Delayed blowback rifles are often reliable, but suffer from an extremely heavy breech block. This makes recoil quite unpleasant, since the centre of mass of the whole rifle changes during the reloading cycle, and the breech block comes back at quite a velocity, and strikes the buffer rather hard. This leads to a kind of double recoil. With the exception of the Swiss Stgw 57, ejection is terribly violent, telling the bad guys exactly where you are firing from. If you ever get the opportunity, fire a FAL and a G3 next to each other -- the contrast is quite marked. delayed blowback actions also crap where they eat, so are very dirty. case head support is also not as consistent as with a locked breech.


4. High rates of fire are not desirable in shoulder fired weapons. Controlability and ammunition consumption are disastrous.


5. conventional gas operation will affect muzzle velocity by 0-0.5%, depending on design, which is almost immeasurable due to ammunition variability. I would wager that delayed blowback operation affect muzzle velocity by a similar degree (i.e. 4/5 of rock all).

6. for any given cartridge and breech face to muzzle dimension, an automatic pistol will have a higher muzzle velocity than a revolver due to the flash gap in a revolver (in a 45 ACP revolver, every 0.005" of flash gap loses you approximately 25 fps). To all practical intents and purposes, however, the differences inconsequential.


7. Bolt action rifles are still used because they are cheaper, lighter, more easily accurised, and so on.


8. The Gasport and gas tube on an AR 15 type rifle are stainless, so cannot corrode. Fouling is only an issue after tens of thousands of shots with modern ammunition. The Vietnam era problems were ammunition related.


9. Please stop posting bone crap all over Teh IntArweb.

 

[Bombardier]

Firstly Stoats, Welcome to MI.Net it is very rare to find a first post so detailed and informative, for that I thankyou.
Secondly thanks for the heads up about this poster, your thoughts about him/her have been confirmed prior to your post by others but again thanks.

The poster has displayed a level of deceit simply by registering different usernames and I have made it quite clear to him/her that this is not acceptable and have taken steps to rectify this.

I am not an expert in the field of small arms and it is exactly this kind of post that enlightens me further

Regards and thanks for joining us
Bombardier

 

[ArcticWolf]

Stoats, thank you for your excellent post.