79th Separate Air Assault Brigade marching exercises.

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One question...

What is the overal opinion about the Tavor Weapon platform performance in Ucranian combat point of view?
Well, if my assessment is fine with you then.

As far as I know, there is no combat point of view on Tavor (licensed Fort-221) in Ukrainian troops because it implies that this weapon was used in combat, in trenches, during raids and recon ops. Except it wasn't.

Most number of Tavors belong to the National Guard units (NG spec ops like "Vega" included) and it's no wonder cause "FORT" is known to mostly manufacture for the police. In it's turn NG is rarely deployed to the frontlines or in combat since 2017. And when they were deployed back in 2014-15-16 they used AKs. The only frontline units that are regularly on the 0-line are 4th Rapid Reaction Brigade and "Azov" Regiment and Tavor is used only by the last. There are like 2 or 3 of them in the regiment along with a couple of Negevs, used mostly for posing purposes.

Next there are like 500 Tavors in the Army, AAF, Navy and SOF, specifically 3rd SSFR, 8th SSFR, Air Assault Forces units and Marines (Naval Infantry if you prefer) as far as I remeber. And the only time I remeber them using Tavors was during the SOF formation period and Parades, simply put they were posing for pics. I remeber only one pic where 8th SSFR guys were posing somwhere near the front, but never seen them with Tavors after. SOF used Tavor a couple of times during live-fire exercises, but that's it. Other than this there seem to be no frontline photos or videos from major battles where SOF members or any other were using even one Tavor. That icludes enemy combat footage and pics.

Other than this observations there are no reviews from soldiers who used Tavor in the field as far as I know. There were some revievs (one specificaly) from volunteers (non-combat) who know a lot of soldiers and have conections etc. The overal consensus from what little was said about Tavor by people directly involved with soldiers and based on several video reviews (apart from standart bull) seems to be that it's not a bad weapon, slightly bit more accurate, easier to hande with minor complaints to the manufucturer, less reliable, but excessively unneeded cause everyone prefer AKs when whent it comes to real combat and ops. Dunno, maybe some superstitions, reluctant to bet their lives on the weapon they don't know. Morover, the fact that SOF having Tavor use "Malyuk" doesn't seem to be a good thing for Tavor.

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Personaly, I think it is a ok weapon for NG and police in urban enviroment, but it's benefits seem to be marginal compared to AK and it is not as good as AK in harsh conditions. That's why it is neglected by the frontline troops.
 
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Well, if my assessment is fine with you then.

As far as I know, there is no combat point of view on Tavor (licensed Fort-221) in Ukrainian troops because it implies that this weapon was used in combat, in trenches, during raids and recon ops. Except it wasn't.

Most number of Tavors belong to the National Guard units (NG spec ops like "Vega" included) and it's no wonder cause "FORT" is known to mostly manufacture for the police. In it's turn NG is rarely deployed to the frontlines or in combat since 2017. And when they were deployed back in 2014-15-16 they used AKs. The only frontline units that are regularly on the 0-line are 4th Rapid Reaction Brigade and "Azov" Regiment and Tavor is used only by the last. There are like 2 or 3 of them in the regiment along with a couple of Negevs, used mostly for posing purposes.

Next there are like 500 Tavors in the Army, AAF, Navy and SOF, specifically 3rd SSFR, 8th SSFR, Air Assault Forces units and Marines (Naval Infantry if you prefer) as far as I remeber. And the only time I remeber them using Tavors was during the SOF formation period and Parades, simply put they were posing for pics. I remeber only one pic where 8th SSFR guys were posing somwhere near the front, but never seen them with Tavors after. SOF used Tavor a couple of times during live-fire exercises, but that's it. Other than this there seem to be no frontline photos or videos from major battles where SOF members or any other were using even one Tavor. That icludes enemy combat footage and pics.

Other than this observations there are no reviews from soldiers who used Tavor in the field as far as I know. There were some revievs (one specificaly) from volunteers (non-combat) who know a lot of soldiers and have conections etc. The overal consensus from what little was said about Tavor by people directly involved with soldiers and based on several video reviews (apart from standart bull) seems to be that it's not a bad weapon, slightly bit more accurate, easier to hande with minor complaints to the manufucturer, less reliable, but excessively unneeded cause everyone prefer AKs when whent it comes to real combat and ops. Dunno, maybe some superstitions, reluctant to bet their lives on the weapon they don't know. Morover, the fact that SOF having Tavor use "Malyuk" doesn't seem to be a good thing for Tavor.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

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Personaly, I think it is a ok weapon for NG and police in urban enviroment, but it's benefits seem to be marginal compared to AK and it is not as good as AK in harsh conditions. That's why it is neglected by the frontline troops.

I'm not going to look up my sources, but my opinion drastically differs from yours. Tavor was heavily used by airborne units during breakout from Debaltsevo cauldron. I've heard nothing but good things about Tavor, especially about units Made in Israel rather than assembled by Fort. The weapon proved incredibly reliable under very harsh winter(!!!) conditions. Also, during some intense firefights some guys went through 10 mags in a short time with no issues. It's very accurate, it came with a red dot sight standard. Guys from Azov, who were lucky to had one issued also praised the weapon.

Now, onto the negatives which have nothing to do with weapon's performance, but everything with Ukrainian "politics". There were never enough ammo, 5.56mm caliber for it. I've heard about units chambered for 5.45mm, but none of "my" guys handled one. The weapon was expensive and it was a direct competitor for locally produced "Maljuk", which is an inferior platform, but there is plenty of 5.45mm of ammo to go around.

A couple of sentences that I heard from Alfa in regards to Tavor vs. SIG MCX is that SIG feels like a more substantiall, better made product compared to Tavor with better ergonomics in their opinion. However, if the choice came down to Tavor vs. "Maljuk", there is no competition, Tavor all the way,
 
I'm not going to look up my sources, but my opinion drastically differs from yours. Tavor was heavily used by airborne units during breakout from Debaltsevo cauldron. I've heard nothing but good things about Tavor, especially about units Made in Israel rather than assembled by Fort. The weapon proved incredibly reliable under very harsh winter(!!!) conditions. Also, during some intense firefights some guys went through 10 mags in a short time with no issues. It's very accurate, it came with a red dot sight standard. Guys from Azov, who were lucky to had one issued also praised the weapon.

Now, onto the negatives which have nothing to do with weapon's performance, but everything with Ukrainian "politics". There were never enough ammo, 5.56mm caliber for it. I've heard about units chambered for 5.45mm, but none of "my" guys handled one. The weapon was expensive and it was a direct competitor for locally produced "Maljuk", which is an inferior platform, but there is plenty of 5.45mm of ammo to go around.

A couple of sentences that I heard from Alfa in regards to Tavor vs. SIG MCX is that SIG feels like a more substantiall, better made product compared to Tavor with better ergonomics in their opinion. However, if the choice came down to Tavor vs. "Maljuk", there is no competition, Tavor all the way,
I doubt that "politics" would persist if there would be a need for this weapon or it was that good. Besides "FORT" gets somewhat preferential treatment. Regarding caliber I also doubt that there would be a problem to order a set of Tavors in 5.45. Unless there are some issues with manufacturing this type or some corruption scandals, or both. Which may very well be the case, knowing how the things usually are. So Malyuk may have been chosen out of necessity or rationality.

I did not imply that it was unreliable just less reliable than AK in the long run, possibly with minimal maintenance. That is not even my opinion but NG officer's in the vid. It might be his speculation, but I think that he at least has some experience of handling both or his soldiers do. 10 mags is not a high bar I'd rather say it's a proper one. Yes, it's strongest points are comfort and accuracy, but they are not overwhelming.

Now that you mentioned Debaltseve, I vaguely recall some stories about somehing like that, the part about cold and 10 mags in particular. However I don't remeber seeing it neither in pic nor in vids in Debaltseve. Probably some participant's or volunteer's story. However, several questions: If they used 5.45 ones why did they stop and if it was 5.56 then where they did get such specific ammo there? Why did not they use it after in Avdiivka Industrial Zone? Now, I'm intrested myself. Maybe you could dig through your sorces after all, if you'll have time and desire that is. I myself might need to do some digging.
 
I'm not going to look up my sources, but my opinion drastically differs from yours. Tavor was heavily used by airborne units during breakout from Debaltsevo cauldron. I've heard nothing but good things about Tavor, especially about units Made in Israel rather than assembled by Fort. The weapon proved incredibly reliable under very harsh winter(!!!) conditions. Also, during some intense firefights some guys went through 10 mags in a short time with no issues. It's very accurate, it came with a red dot sight standard. Guys from Azov, who were lucky to had one issued also praised the weapon.

Now, onto the negatives which have nothing to do with weapon's performance, but everything with Ukrainian "politics". There were never enough ammo, 5.56mm caliber for it. I've heard about units chambered for 5.45mm, but none of "my" guys handled one. The weapon was expensive and it was a direct competitor for locally produced "Maljuk", which is an inferior platform, but there is plenty of 5.45mm of ammo to go around.

A couple of sentences that I heard from Alfa in regards to Tavor vs. SIG MCX is that SIG feels like a more substantiall, better made product compared to Tavor with better ergonomics in their opinion. However, if the choice came down to Tavor vs. "Maljuk", there is no competition, Tavor all the way,
Also the info from your contacts is most appreciated.
 
I doubt that "politics" would persist if there would be a need for this weapon or it was that good. Besides "FORT" gets somewhat preferential treatment. Regarding caliber I also doubt that there would be a problem to order a set of Tavors in 5.45. Unless there are some issues with manufacturing this type or some corruption scandals, or both. Which may very well be the case, knowing how the things usually are. So Malyuk may have been chosen out of necessity or rationality.

I did not imply that it was unreliable just less reliable than AK in the long run, possibly with minimal maintenance. That is not even my opinion but NG officer's in the vid. It might be his speculation, but I think that he at least has some experience of handling both or his soldiers do. 10 mags is not a high bar I'd rather say it's a proper one. Yes, it's strongest points are comfort and accuracy, but they are not overwhelming.

Now that you mentioned Debaltseve, I vaguely recall some stories about somehing like that, the part about cold and 10 mags in particular. However I don't remeber seeing it neither in pic nor in vids in Debaltseve. Probably some participant's or volunteer's story. However, several questions: If they used 5.45 ones why did they stop and if it was 5.56 then where they did get such specific ammo there? Why did not they use it after in Avdiivka Industrial Zone? Now, I'm intrested myself. Maybe you could dig through your sorces after all, if you'll have time and desire that is. I myself might need to do some digging.

5.56mm was used for sure. Simply ran out of ammo. It was also widely used by "Azov" at the same time during Shirokino operation. Also, LMG Negev and Galil sniper were used as well, a couple of Negevs were captured by the Russians at Donetsk airport. Folks were raving about Negev. I need to review my albums, just don't have time. All in all, I think Maljuk was "forced" over Tavor. Other politics could have played a part since Israel initially agreed to and then rescinded on various weapons system sales to Ukraine. Afterwards, there was a communications equipment tender that went to the Turks, souring relations even further.
 
So far, found more pics of Galatz than Tavor. However, apparently even criminals in uniforms like troops from "Tornado" battalion turned out to be had Tavors.

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I'm not going to look up my sources, but my opinion drastically differs from yours. Tavor was heavily used by airborne units during breakout from Debaltsevo cauldron. I've heard nothing but good things about Tavor, especially about units Made in Israel rather than assembled by Fort. The weapon proved incredibly reliable under very harsh winter(!!!) conditions. Also, during some intense firefights some guys went through 10 mags in a short time with no issues. It's very accurate, it came with a red dot sight standard. Guys from Azov, who were lucky to had one issued also praised the weapon.

Now, onto the negatives which have nothing to do with weapon's performance, but everything with Ukrainian "politics". There were never enough ammo, 5.56mm caliber for it. I've heard about units chambered for 5.45mm, but none of "my" guys handled one. The weapon was expensive and it was a direct competitor for locally produced "Maljuk", which is an inferior platform, but there is plenty of 5.45mm of ammo to go around.

A couple of sentences that I heard from Alfa in regards to Tavor vs. SIG MCX is that SIG feels like a more substantiall, better made product compared to Tavor with better ergonomics in their opinion. However, if the choice came down to Tavor vs. "Maljuk", there is no competition, Tavor all the way,
Heh it seemed that I had one story in the bookmarks however the only passage About tavor in 3rd SSFR is
"Я прыгаю с БТРа и уже в полете чувствую – что-то прилетело мне в ногу. Приземляюсь – передо мной метрах в 20 чувак целится по ребятам на БТРе, я стреляю – и осечка! У нас новые были "Форт-221". Устраняю осечку, полсекунды, а врага уже нет - то ли срезали его, то ли сам упал." Источник: https://censor.net.ua/r3051012

And it says that it jammed in the most crusial moment. So I guess they were used, but it still leaves questions.
 
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So far, found more pics of Galatz than Tavor. However, apparently even criminals in uniforms like troops from "Tornado" battalion turned out to be had Tavors.

View attachment 213446View attachment 213447View attachment 213448View attachment 213449View attachment 213450View attachment 213451View attachment 213452View attachment 213453View attachment 213454

Police units mostly, also posing mostly. Yeah Tornado, don't even remind me. My last interaction with them was less than pleasant. But the Isa Munayew battalion is a pleasant blast from the past. RIP Isa.
 
5.56mm was used for sure. Simply ran out of ammo. It was also widely used by "Azov" at the same time during Shirokino operation. Also, LMG Negev and Galil sniper were used as well, a couple of Negevs were captured by the Russians at Donetsk airport. Folks were raving about Negev. I need to review my albums, just don't have time. All in all, I think Maljuk was "forced" over Tavor. Other politics could have played a part since Israel initially agreed to and then rescinded on various weapons system sales to Ukraine. Afterwards, there was a communications equipment tender that went to the Turks, souring relations even further.
Are you talking about that Negev (I don't really remeber Negev though) along with the M4's propaganda clip in DAP?

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5.56mm was used for sure. Simply ran out of ammo. It was also widely used by "Azov" at the same time during Shirokino operation. Also, LMG Negev and Galil sniper were used as well, a couple of Negevs were captured by the Russians at Donetsk airport. Folks were raving about Negev. I need to review my albums, just don't have time. All in all, I think Maljuk was "forced" over Tavor. Other politics could have played a part since Israel initially agreed to and then rescinded on various weapons system sales to Ukraine. Afterwards, there was a communications equipment tender that went to the Turks, souring relations even further.
Shirokino op. hardly had any combat, especially direct firefight from what I've seen because Debaltseve was the main concentration point of enemy at the time. So I didn't even consider it. No hate for "Azov" though, at least they did smth. First time I hear about Negevs being captured. Damn I've only seen them in Azov. Well, there was quite a bit of spears broken over IAI Searchers being shot down over Donbas also there was refusal to sell UAVs to Ukraine as far as I remeber, but by this time "FORT" should have already been making their own Tavors, not just assembling.
 
Shirokino op. hardly had any combat, especially direct firefight from what I've seen because Debaltseve was the main concentration point of enemy at the time. So I didn't even consider it. No hate for "Azov" though, at least they did smth. First time I hear about Negevs being captured. Damn I've only seen them in Azov. Well, there was quite a bit of spears broken over IAI Searchers being shot down over Donbas also there was refusal to sell UAVs to Ukraine as far as I remeber, but by this time "FORT" should have already been making their own Tavors, not just assembling.

Negevs were captured by the Russians during the 2008 war along with plenty of other gear, most notably Grom manpads that caused a lot of grief for Ukrainians. Fort is garbage, sorry.
 
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Are you talking about that Negev (I don't really remeber Negev though) along with the M4's propaganda clip in DAP?

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Bushmaster XM-15E3s, long time no see my friend...

Thing is initially Russian FSB supplied pro-Russian terrorists with some gear captured in Russia-Georgia war, bulgarian AKs, old captured AK-74s and stuff like that, they took a careful approach to it, but for me thing became clear when Ukrainians captured GROM manpad, which appeared to be from Georgian contract (serials maching) and was captured by Russians in 2008. Those are bushmasters you see on that picture, and i bet those negevs came from Georgia as well.

There are some rumors here in Georgia that BUK that was used to down civilian aircraft in East Ukraine was one of the systems Russia captured in 2008, not sure about that one, but would not surprise me if that was the case.
 

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