Photos Ukraine Vs Russia 2014-2021

[Slipknot]

In the case of a full-scale Russian interference, the conflict would have ended after 4 weeks, the parade in Kiev

That is a good point however Russia is supporting a pro Russian population in that particular area, not trying to take over control of the Ukraine, I doubt he would ever move to "All out war"

 

[diman]

the coup by the Nazis in Ukraine has divided the country, the civil war is the most terrible

 

[saiga]

Okay, ladies and gents, this will be long, so get a cup of coffee or tea and some cookies.

First of all, Ukrainian soldiers are still dying so that others may go on with their lives. Mariupol, Horlivka, Ilovaisk, Debaltseve, Kramatorsk, Donetsk and others, we will never forget them.

Second of all, Ukraine isn´t divided and isn´t thrown into a civil war. Yes, Poroshenko is a dumbass and Ukrainian people will make him accountable for all his stupid decisions. One day, not now – now they´ve got bigger problems. Search for a map, as far as I´m concerned even the map from the heat of this war from the summer of 2014, the front lines have moved eastwards since then. We´re talking here about two “separatists” oblast in the entire country (the quotation marks are used intentionally here, since I do not believe in a separatist-whatsoever in this war).

Third of all, people who think that the war in Ukraine is the chessboard of some US-Russian geopolitical Dame game which marginalizes Europe, should repeat all history classes at elementary school.

History itself, two world wars, waves of immigration, had impact on the functioning of states in Eastern Europe, and their problematic post-Soviet development. In the case of Ukraine, they still do. I´m a Machiavellian, by the way, I believe in political struggle in the name of a greater good using any means available including violence, if necessary, regardless of any moral principles. The crisis began on 21st November 2013 with – in spite of what some people believe – spontaneous protests on Maidan, and was inflamed by the annexation of the Crimea by the Russian army. And I dare say that it has developed into a European crisis. The EU has its share of responsibility – not only in its complicated, sometimes ambivalent approach towards the East and Russia, but also because of the so called Eastern Partnership. In its spirit the EU offered the Association Agreement to Ukraine – which implementation the government in Russia couldn´t even imagine (with Ukraine being in its sphere of influence and all). On the other hand, who are we to think we can dictate what another country wants and needs – these are thoughts that belong to the post-war division of the world, not here and now. If Ukraine wants to freely trade with Russia, EU and US, it should be allowed to do so. As I told once to a colleague during a "NATO: Yes or No" debate: there´s a difference between Warsaw Pact and NATO. We have chosen to be a member of NATO. Do you see the similarities here?

To get back on the subject. The Association Agreement is very similar to the European Economic Area which includes Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland. These states are not EU members, nevertheless, they are part of the EU single market, and thus, essentially, they automatically implement the union´s legislation which “governs” several of their inner political, industrial, legal, economic etc. areas. To sum up, Russia has a fair share of responsibility for Ukraine too. Russia has always done both European and global politics (come to think of it, not so different from, for example, Turkey). The Crimea was a short circuit, a manifestation of its weakness, not strength. You want to govern another country, sure, try and send an army there. If they´re weak like we were in 1968, you will be lucky and remain there for decades. If they´re willing to fight, however… Had Russia not invaded Ukrainian soil but proceeded as it does now in Donbas (imagine it without the Crimea scenario, more like Georgia in 2008 or Kosovo in 1999 or any other low profile military operation before that), it would have had much more leverage to influence and shape Ukraine´s political routing on the inside and on the outside. I know, I know, Putin probably planned Crimea in his pretty little awesome head during his early years by the secret service (so the rumor goes), but Crimea was not a decision that would maintain Ukraine as its partner – or a substantial part of it. And above all, the price of this decision is huge. The economic situation in the area is worsening, peace is nowhere in sight (and it won´t be; my personal bet: Donbas becomes a buffer zone for the time being, same as South Ossetia) and Putin has brought this problem to his home. It was the stupidest decision in his career and it´ll be his end.

Russia gained Crimea (and maybe Donbas), but lost Ukraine. Ukraine lost Crimea, but gained itself.

 

[diman]

Okay, ladies and gents, this will be long, so get a cup of coffee or tea and some cookies.

First of all, Ukrainian soldiers are still dying so that others may go on with their lives. Mariupol, Horlivka, Ilovaisk, Debaltseve, Kramatorsk, Donetsk and others, we will never forget them.

Second of all, Ukraine isn´t divided and isn´t thrown into a civil war. Yes, Poroshenko is a dumbass and Ukrainian people will make him accountable for all his stupid decisions. One day, not now – now they´ve got bigger problems. Search for a map, as far as I´m concerned even the map from the heat of this war from the summer of 2014, the front lines have moved eastwards since then. We´re talking here about two “separatists” oblast in the entire country (the quotation marks are used intentionally here, since I do not believe in a separatist-whatsoever in this war).

Third of all, people who think that the war in Ukraine is the chessboard of some US-Russian geopolitical Dame game which marginalizes Europe, should repeat all history classes at elementary school.

History itself, two world wars, waves of immigration, had impact on the functioning of states in Eastern Europe, and their problematic post-Soviet development. In the case of Ukraine, they still do. I´m a Machiavellian, by the way, I believe in political struggle in the name of a greater good using any means available including violence, if necessary, regardless of any moral principles. The crisis began on 21st November 2013 with – in spite of what some people believe – spontaneous protests on Maidan, and was inflamed by the annexation of the Crimea by the Russian army. And I dare say that it has developed into a European crisis. The EU has its share of responsibility – not only in its complicated, sometimes ambivalent approach towards the East and Russia, but also because of the so called Eastern Partnership. In its spirit the EU offered the Association Agreement to Ukraine – which implementation the government in Russia couldn´t even imagine (with Ukraine being in its sphere of influence and all). On the other hand, who are we to think we can dictate what another country wants and needs – these are thoughts that belong to the post-war division of the world, not here and now. If Ukraine wants to freely trade with Russia, EU and US, it should be allowed to do so. As I told once to a colleague during a "NATO: Yes or No" debate: there´s a difference between Warsaw Pact and NATO. We have chosen to be a member of NATO. Do you see the similarities here?

To get back on the subject. The Association Agreement is very similar to the European Economic Area which includes Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland. These states are not EU members, nevertheless, they are part of the EU single market, and thus, essentially, they automatically implement the union´s legislation which “governs” several of their inner political, industrial, legal, economic etc. areas. To sum up, Russia has a fair share of responsibility for Ukraine too. Russia has always done both European and global politics (come to think of it, not so different from, for example, Turkey). The Crimea was a short circuit, a manifestation of its weakness, not strength. You want to govern another country, sure, try and send an army there. If they´re weak like we were in 1968, you will be lucky and remain there for decades. If they´re willing to fight, however… Had Russia not invaded Ukrainian soil but proceeded as it does now in Donbas (imagine it without the Crimea scenario, more like Georgia in 2008 or Kosovo in 1999 or any other low profile military operation before that), it would have had much more leverage to influence and shape Ukraine´s political routing on the inside and on the outside. I know, I know, Putin probably planned Crimea in his pretty little awesome head during his early years by the secret service (so the rumor goes), but Crimea was not a decision that would maintain Ukraine as its partner – or a substantial part of it. And above all, the price of this decision is huge. The economic situation in the area is worsening, peace is nowhere in sight (and it won´t be; my personal bet: Donbas becomes a buffer zone for the time being, same as South Ossetia) and Putin has brought this problem to his home. It was the stupidest decision in his career and it´ll be his end.

Russia gained Crimea (and maybe Donbas), but lost Ukraine. Ukraine lost Crimea, but gained itself.

First of all in the Donbas are still dying civilians after shelling from the Ukrainian side!


At the beginning of the conflict, the Eastern region wanted independence, they wanted autonomy within Ukraine


Ukraine wanted to sit on two chairs simultaneously, while trading without fees and with Russia and with the EU She was offered a choice, Ukraine chose the EU. Well, only in Russia, Ukraine delivered the goods with big added value, machinery and engineering products, while the EU agricultural products. From the industrial state of Ukraine has decided to become an agricultural power, having left without work of hundreds of thousands of workers

Putin saved those who wanted to speak Russian and did not want to obey the Nazis came to power through coup

 

[saiga]

You and me brother both know that Eastern Ukraine would never be independent. It would be as independent as South Ossetia is. Really, the same scenario all over again. Artificially created to satisfy someone´s claims under the pretext of protection and assistance. If you remember the problems began after Crimea as “pro-Russian” demonstrators started protests in South and East Ukraine which escalated into an armed conflict. After the Russian “humanitarian convoy” passed the border to Ukraine, the insurgents amazingly gained on armament and territory. And the madness began.

People are still dying there because warlords who cannot be controlled on the insurgent side took over the land. They do not respect Minsk, they do not respect anything. It´s a war in which the enemy cannot be identified by the uniforms or weapons or positions of the trenches since the insurgents are hiding amongst civilians who have no means to leave the war zone. No video will change that. Putin wanted to save those who speak Russian (by the way, I know everything about the intentional displacement of Russian population on the border line in the past) by subversion of yet another country. And it went out of his hands.

And Nazis? Amongst terrified recruits, volunteers and handful of seasoned soldiers, you send the crazies to fight the crazies. Not all the insurgents are loving fathers and brothers either. I´ve seen the footage, I´ve seen the names. And I´m not talking here about the Russian paratroopers or the 6th tank brigade who officially happen to be on vacation at some unknown place while their families worry at home. The images of how that insurgent scum captured a pair of wounded Ukrainian soldiers is burned into my mind. What kind of a person instead of aiding another human being who needs help takes a selfie and records a video of them wallowing in their pain and blood? Threatens to shoot them? Leaves them to bleed? There are war crimes on both sides. The only difference is - and this is not a mitigating circumstance by any means - Ukrainian soldiers are fighting for their country, insurgents are not.

 

[diman]

You and me brother both know that Eastern Ukraine would never be independent. It would be as independent as South Ossetia is. Really, the same scenario all over again. Artificially created to satisfy someone´s claims under the pretext of protection and assistance. If you remember the problems began after Crimea as “pro-Russian” demonstrators started protests in South and East Ukraine which escalated into an armed conflict. After the Russian “humanitarian convoy” passed the border to Ukraine, the insurgents amazingly gained on armament and territory. And the madness began.

People are still dying there because warlords who cannot be controlled on the insurgent side took over the land. They do not respect Minsk, they do not respect anything. It´s a war in which the enemy cannot be identified by the uniforms or weapons or positions of the trenches since the insurgents are hiding amongst civilians who have no means to leave the war zone. No video will change that. Putin wanted to save those who speak Russian (by the way, I know everything about the intentional displacement of Russian population on the border line in the past) by subversion of yet another country. And it went out of his hands.

And Nazis? Amongst terrified recruits, volunteers and handful of seasoned soldiers, you send the crazies to fight the crazies. Not all the insurgents are loving fathers and brothers either. I´ve seen the footage, I´ve seen the names. And I´m not talking here about the Russian paratroopers or the 6th tank brigade who officially happen to be on vacation at some unknown place while their families worry at home. The images of how that insurgent scum captured a pair of wounded Ukrainian soldiers is burned into my mind. What kind of a person instead of aiding another human being who needs help takes a selfie and records a video of them wallowing in their pain and blood? Threatens to shoot them? Leaves them to bleed? There are war crimes on both sides. The only difference is - and this is not a mitigating circumstance by any means - Ukrainian soldiers are fighting for their country, insurgents are not.

remind meafterwhat incidentstartedthe conflict in South Ossetiain 2008?

80% of equipmentandweaponstaken awayin military unitsof Ukrainelocated in the Donbass

repair base
on technique more visible symbols of the Ukrainian army
2 white stripes, or the letter V, White

 

[diman]

Field commanders who do not comply with the Minsk agreement themselves shelled their cities and towns?

why take the weaponshumanitarian convoywhenthere arehundreds of kilometersof uncontrolled border?

 

[diman]

http://lostarmour.info/spoils/
the site with the list of troveyny Ukrainian equipment
got to a militia
439 units
photo and dislocation

 

[saiga]

I´m awfully busy today but I will get to this thread later. In the meantime:

http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-world-war-two-veteran/26997941.html

Ukrainian military veteran Ivan Zaluzhniy has witnessed the tragedies of two wars separated by seven decades. He served in the Soviet Red Army and fought in Stalingrad during the deadliest battle of World War II. In August 2014, Zaluzhniy's grandson, also a soldier, was killed in fighting in eastern Ukraine.

 

[saiga]

Ukraine wanted to sit on two chairs simultaneously, while trading without fees and with Russia and with the EU She was offered a choice, Ukraine chose the EU. Well, only in Russia, Ukraine delivered the goods with big added value, machinery and engineering products, while the EU agricultural products. From the industrial state of Ukraine has decided to become an agricultural power, having left without work of hundreds of thousands of workers

And that is the recipe for war naturally, yes? Moving on. The pictures and the video is from Sputnik TV? Not saying I don´t believe them it´s just their coverage of the Ukrainian war has been doubtful to say the least. By the way, the Russo-Georgian war in 2008? Why, blowing up peacekeepers, the drone, the green men, the snipers… what do you expect from a buffer zone between Georgia and Russia, milk and honey? There has been violations of the border by the Georgian, Ossetian and Russian side since the fall of the Soviet Union. The last time I´ve heard there were Russian forces present in the occupied territory, no other foreign monitoring mission. Provocation will occasionally inflame military clashes. To be a frozen conflict zone is the future of Donbas too.

If the NAF commanders shelled themselves that would be dumb and I bet my awesome watch I got from my mother-in-law on Christmas they´d be called back from where they came from. No. What I meant was how do you separate combatants from civilians in a war like this? You are a Ukrainian soldier at a checkpoint, fire incoming… Do you ask them nicely? Mistakes and crimes happen on both sides. Shelling of residential areas is a stupid idea of some hotshot hungry for medals, true, but the NAF will not surrender (why should they), Ukraine either (famous Poro´s words), hence the civilians stuck in the war zone are in constant danger. Poor people caught in the middle of this. What were the insurgents thinking when they stormed the administrative building in Donetsk and Luhansk a week later? That the Ukrainian government would stand by watching as they did during the annexation of Crimea? Stupid, stupid... Oh, and I don´t buy that NAF commanders care for the wellbeing of civilians. Do you remember as they stormed the building of IRC last year? The one organisation that was truly helping them? Accused a bunch of humanitarian workers of spying and kicked them out? No. No with people like Strelkov or Pavlov. Look, I am all for fighting for rights and stuff but employing these men was... an unfortunate decision.

You know I´ve fought a strong urge since yesterday as I finally had the time to read through this thread and I decided it´s time to drop by. In regards of the Nazi talk here, first of all, I´m glad that the dogeater met his fate, serves him right. Then, there´s at least one photoshoped Picture (didn´t have time to check for more). And then I remembered this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_(officer) This is the poor misunderstood hero, the man who lead the "independence movement" in Donetsk. So please, can we finally agree that there are sociopaths on both sides or enough of the Nazis talk or I start to dig deeper… and that´s the one thing I am really, really good at.

Lostarmour is an interesting site, thank you for reminding me, I remember reading there that averagely 35-year-old-men were joining the NAF´s ranks in 2014, 25-year-old-men in 2015. I better find time to browse it again. Oh, and this triggers another memory…

why take the weaponshumanitarian convoywhenthere arehundreds of kilometersof uncontrolled border

You´re actually right, you know? Too bad Mp.net is gone forever, god bless it and its 9.000+ pages on the war in Ukraine but this is what I´ve saved on my FB. Military “parade” in Donetsk in April 2015, the vehicles looked almost brand new then. So. Was this the 80% or the "remaining" 20%?







Come on, if NAF wouldn´t got the help it gets they´d be overrun in the summer of 2014. Instead Ilovaisk happened.

 

[diman]

excuse mypoorEnglish ,poor knowledge of the language (don't knowat all)andcan't give detailed answers

while were Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia, a full-scale war was not. Peaceful people are not killed,

civilians have not come to war, a war came to them!
Ukrainian military shelled residential areas of the city with a population of almost a million people! What they wanted to accomplish? The population hate Ukrainian army after that!!


Strelkov (very strong curse the word) one of those who provoked it the conflict

military trophies of a militia

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[diman]

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anymore?

 

[Bombardier]

I know so little about this this conflict that I feel at a loss with the conversation. I do thank you all for enlightening me with your thoughts, photos and videos though. I will try and get myself up to speed with the issues, players and politics of this terrible situation

 

[diman]

Get double standards! When the Ukraine overthrew the government with the help of neo-Nazis, the West recognized this as legitimate, when in Eastern Ukraine, so did the anti-fascists, the West protested!

 

[saiga]

For what it´s worth, West didn´t cheer, West was cautiously optimistic. Comparing Donbas and Maidan is just... I don´t know if ignorant or absurd. How can you still call insurgents in Donbas anti-fascists even with Strelkov being one of the leading men is beyond me. Use the Force, look into your heart, search the feelings. By the way, a curse word? I thought it meant gunner, shooter. Oh my

while were Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia, a full-scale war was not. Peaceful people are not killed

True. RF should keep those insurgents on the leash. The problems is, sometimes they can´t.

civilians have not come to war, a war came to them

I feel for the unknown RF soldiers dying on the Donbas front (not for those who went voluntarily), the public will never know of them, their loved ones are not allowed to speak of them; I feel for the Ukrainian soldiers (not for their fat Soviet-era generals), they didn´t want the war, they were normal people going on with their lives the same as we do here, bunch of them are reenactors, airsofters, nerds like me who waited for star wars to come out and thought that Christopher Lee was badass; I feel for the Donbas people, pro-Ukrainian, pro-Russian, doesn´t matter, for those who got caught up in the middle of this madness, for those who gave in to their nationalism and got stirred up by warmongers, foreign military combatants installed on purpose and paid to do as ordered, moving in, striking a rebellion. I don´t feel a thing for the latter, extremists, being it followers of Bandera or former felonies released from RF prisons and Kadyrov´s dogs, unleashed and send to war. They deserve two bullets in the head each. These are my standards.

The population of the entire area was something about 3 mil before the war. More or less 700.000 refugees, everyone who got a car and other means left. These are just numbers, nothing to do with this. Ukraine made a lot bad decisions, depriving the ATO zone of any law and publicly boasting about it, starting a blockade which cancelled any possibility of rescue for civilian population, shelling of residential areas they gave up on, directly after Maidan proposing a number of laws which played into the hands of Strelkov and the like, and although none of it was ever adopted, instead of mitigating the fears of the Russian-speaking population, they increased them, unleashing the ultra-nationalists, calling coca-cola critically important… The video in which the burning phosphorus rains from the sky has haunted me for some time. There should have been blue helmets in Donbas and some foreign observation/humanitarian team. But it´s impossible. Ilovaisk should have been the end for everyone. But it wasn´t. If RF forces weren´t directly involved, there would be no more war, people wouldn´t be suffering. But they were. Now they´ve got another buffer zone which will never quite down. Putin is a cynical evil mastermind, I give him that. He wanted to humiliate Ukraine, he got himself a frozen conflict for the foreseeable time being. Well done.

anymore?

Sure. I like military videos. I just hope this has got nothing to do with my assumptions about RF´s involvement.

I know so little about this this conflict that I feel at a loss with the conversation. I do thank you all for enlightening me with your thoughts, photos and videos though. I will try and get myself up to speed with the issues, players and politics of this terrible situation

Please do so, just (and I apologize if I´m overreacting)… don´t go fully Sputnik. Steer clear of Slavyangrad and Fort Russ, and use Tass with utmost caution. And mind Dailyfail. Militarymaps are very useful.

excuse mypoorEnglish ,poor knowledge of the language (don't knowat all)andcan't give detailed answers

No worries, buddy, we´re just chatting, not assembling the UN board of auditors I´d love to chat privately and in Russian sometimes, it´s just… very rusty on my part, hell, worse than that, and I don´t want to offend anyone as I did once on a French forum. It was very embarrassing. I don´t want to talk about it

 

[saiga]

Speaking of evil mastermind, this is an interesting article regarding the Crimea annexation with cool photographs: The Kalashnikovs of The Ukrainian Civil War http://imgur.com/a/oGmhi My Brother posted it to me when it happened, I found it useful, maybe you guys will find it useful too.

 

[diman]

the base of the Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia was fired from jet artillery and tanks by several hours! The peace city of Tskhinvali was fired from grad!!! Russia aggressor??

Ukraine says that Russian troops in Ukraine thousands!!!! But has hundreds of captured rebels

While in Ukraine there was a lawful government, the Crimea was Ukrainian and Donbass!
Everything has begun after revolution in Ukraine!
Elections had to be in a year! Why revolution? Why the State Department of the USA came to speak at meetings???

if Russian troops did not help even in a small degree, in the Donbass would be a genocide as in Odessa!

Strelkov- shooter-ssuka

for all its faults, Kadyrov Aldean was able to completely clear the entrenched Wahhabis from Chechnya, no Wahhabi mosque in Chechnya, there is no,
Chechenslike to fightwithanyone, anywhere


from two parties of mercenaries оч it isn't enough, almost all volunteers -Propaganda

Putin not of 100 dollars that is pleasant to all! When in Russia the weak governor he is pleasant to all as it is strange...

in Crimea, more than 80% of Ukrain iantroops movedto the Russian army

 

[saiga]

for all its faults, Kadyrov Aldean was able to completely clear the entrenched Wahhabis from Chechnya, no Wahhabi mosque in Chechnya, there is no,
Chechenslike to fightwithanyone, anywhere

For all his faults? Kadyrov is a mass murderer.

Donbass would be a genocide as in Odessa

Odessa... like in 1941?

Elections had to be in a year! Why revolution?

Yanukovich raped the constitiution, that´s why.

Strelkov- shooter-ssuka

Oooh, alright. Suits him well then.

if Russian troops did not help even in a small degree

In a small... oh. I just want to bash my head against the keyboard right now. Ilovaisk. And yeah, tell that to the old gentleman in that video I posted above. There really is no need to convince me with so many exclamation marks.

The Russo-Georgian war is a whole another chapter. I was younger, prettier back then, I went to college and I was part-time stationed at our ministry of defence.

I have to go now, I´m leaving... no, not on a jet plane but I´ll be off for two-three days. We can continue our chat then, alright?

 

[diman]

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[diman]

For all his faults? Kadyrov is a mass murderer.



Odessa... like in 1941?



Yanukovich raped the constitiution, that´s why.



Oooh, alright. Suits him well then.



In a small... oh. I just want to bash my head against the keyboard right now. Ilovaisk. And yeah, tell that to the old gentleman in that video I posted above. There really is no need to convince me with so many exclamation marks.

The Russo-Georgian war is a whole another chapter. I was younger, prettier back then, I went to college and I was part-time stationed at our ministry of defence.

I have to go now, I´m leaving... no, not on a jet plane but I´ll be off for two-three days. We can continue our chat then, alright?

Yanukovych has raped the Constitution? give facts , I could lead the current government violates the Constitution much more than Yanukovych!


I do not deny the presence of Russian soldiers,but not in the quantities that Ukrainians say

You have no idea who was replaced by Kadyrov, and how he's better than those whom he had buried in the ground



ifI wasoverlyharsh, I apologize