One for Rotorwash...

Sparky

Mi Sergeant
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...and other veterans.

I think this is best asked of someone who was actually there and it's more out of curiosity than anything else.

The film Air America was about the CIA exchanging arms for opium...I take it there is some degree of truth behind this, but given Hollywoods "Artistic Licence" I was wondering if you could shed any light on it?
 
We had a pilot named Mike Banek who was awarded a DFC for flying in to rescue the wounded pilot of another aircraft (and that's another story) who eventually worked for Air America. He says that he was the pattern for Robert Downey's character in the movie. Other then that, he doesn't say much about it, I'll ask him.

I also have some info from early days (63-64) of SF in Laos that I will check.

There were some incredible individuals in Air America, guys that had landed in the streets of Shanghai to rescue people from the Communists and had been flying ever since. We called them China Hands. They had names like Earthquake McGoon (who died resupplying the French at Dien Bien Phu) and Shower Shoes Wilson. One time someone asked Shower Shoes how much flying time he had, he pointed to a DC-3 and said, "Oh, about 5,000 hours in that one." The guy asking the question scoffed, "That's not much at all!" Wilson continued, "and 6,000 in that one over there and 3,000 in the one back there. . . ."

RW
 
RW, I find in fascinating, really. I guess there are things you can read in a book, but there's no substitute for first hand accounts. In the film they were flying small single engine planes that the FAA wouldn't even certify as fit to fly, they were also landing on what were no more than hillside clearings ( it's a jungle after all so imagine that's all based on truth).

Looking forward to hearing more, thanks for the feedback.
 
Don't be fooled, Air America may have looked like Dogpatch Airlines but the CIA can buy anything they want. I think in the movie the aircraft (haven't seen it recently enough to remember) they knocked the wings off of was a Pilatus Porter, we called it the U-10, one of the finest short field aircraft in the world. Made in Switzerland, I think. We used them in SF, knock the goal posts down and any football field was an active airport. Much quieter then helicopters.
 
Speaking of plane vs helicopter, if your engine fails in a plane you can glide down ( up to a point ) and in a helo you can use auto rotation which I think military pilots practice a lot by disengaging the gearbox ( I saw it done on a chinook once).

I assume though there are limits on this, after all you've only got whatever momentum is left in the blades right? I suppose my question is, does there come a point where you're too high and you'll be falling like a stone by the time the rotors stop spinning?
 
Chinooks scared me. Any aircraft with 7 gearboxes is suspicious.

When you look at a rotor blade closely (something everyone does, right?)you notice the curve changes through the length of the blade. The outboard end of the blade creates the lift while the inboard third or so (depending on helicopter type) is designed to accelerate the rotor when collective is bottomed out. The scenario goes something like this: Engine quits, when engine speed drops below transmission speed, the sprague clutch disengages so it is not dragging the engine weight along. The pilot drops collective to the floor taking all of the angle out of the blades. The inboard part of the blade builds rotor speed but is controlled by a governor so it doesn't go beyond limits. All of this creates a controlled descent speed that is fast for most purposes but still allows the controls to work. When the ground, which is rapidly approaching, gets to a certain point (it does seem like it is coming up to meet you) the pilot begins to pull in collective, changing the pitch in the rotor blades and exchanging rotor speed for a decrease in descent speed. In most single rotor aircraft the nose goes very high to get rid of forward speed and if all goes well the aircraft touches down without losing any of its parts just as the rotor speed runs out. I wrote a story about taking a bullet in the engine. That time we just flew the aircraft to the ground, kind of a fixed wing type landing on helicopter skids. We had some RPM left but pulling power may have caused it to bleed off leaving us with no engine and no altitude.

The OH-58 was an exciting aircraft because the outboard end of the blade was weighted so if your engine quit at low level you wouldn't get a dirt facial as in most helicopters, you could actually gain about 500 feet of altitude, pick your landing spot and autorotate in safety. I was one of the first people qualified to instruct maintenance on it and this was the standard trick to pull on a new pilot being transitioned over. When you are flying below treetop level along a stream and that awful siren of God that screams the engine has just quit comes on, the new pilots either experienced a voice change or had to clean up a mess. We had a good laugh at their expense. Even when you knew it was coming it was still scary.
 
a case of cruel to be kind, after all there's no substitute for the real thing ! thamks for the info ( the collective part left me a little) for the large part I understand..

Very interesting though...
 
Sorry about the confusing terminology. Along with pedals the pilot has two controls, the cyclic between his knees controls the angle of the rotor disc. Imagine a plate on a pencil, the cyclic causes the plate to tilt in one direction or another. The collective is on the pilot's left side and only goes up or down. Pulling it up causes the pitch in the individual rotor blades to increase, pushing it down reduces pitch in the blades. To take off, the pilot pulls up on the collective increasing pitch in the blades until the aircraft starts to lift. When it is clear of the ground the cyclic is pushed forward gradually, tilting the rotor disc until it is pulling the aircraft forward. To really gain speed fast the cyclic is pushed forward and the collective is pulled into the pilot's armpit. The nose is then pointing almost straight at the ground and all the power is being transferred to the blades.

I'd love to know the story of the CH-46 in the picture on the Images page. I can't tell if he is towing the sled across the ice or if he is taking off. Of course, he could be crashing, but if that is the case, the photog didn't survive either.
 
Ooooooh so THAT's the collective....I thought it was the handbrake ;)

I was wondering the same thing about that Photo, he's either on his way up or on his way down...I couldn't help but think what is the pilot looking at, apart from the ice 10ft in front of him !!
 
I agree, the more I look at that picture the more amazed I am. A helicopter was not designed to be a tow truck and it's an absolute miracle if that pilot is not in trouble. He has over rotated (nose pointing too far down) his lifting cable should be perpendicular to the fore-aft center line of the aircraft or it will drag the nose farther down. I can only imagine he has full collective or his forward speed would be in the direction his nose is pointing. With full collective all of his power is pulling perpendicular to the rotor disc so if he cut the cable he would immediately shoot forward and upward. What is really scary is his close proximity to the ice. Follow the arc of his rotor tip and it doesn't clear the ice by much. Fascinating picture, I would like to learn more.
 
Earthquake McGoon

Just to throw in my two pennies worth.
I was part of the intial JTF-FMA mission to Sam Neua to search for the remains of James B. "Earthquake" McGoon. A true creature of immense physical corpulence who was was outweighed by the swath of character that he cut across South East Asia in the late 1950's.
One poignant moment in Hawaii prior to begining our journey to Northern Laos was the emphasis by JTF/FMA/CILHI that "Earthquake" was not alone, and not the sole quest of our journey. We were not going to "look for Earthquake", but to hopefully find the remains of Mr. McGoon, James Buford, his co-pilot, and the Thai "kicker" who was also onboard during that flight. His job was to kick out the cannon that they were delivering to the French. Gee, we were involved in Vietnam back then?
There was also a French soldier who was onboard during the flight, but unfortunately he was the only survivor of the wreck and was held prisoner by the NVA untill late in the 1970's. When asked in 2000 if he would assist in identifying the site, he exclaimed, "I will never return to that hemisphere of the world".
The wreckage site was easily identified due to pictures that were taken by a "chase" plane that was behind McGoon and Buford. The pictures we had when we were there showed the 195'4 wreckage still burning at the site.
So, here we were, almost 40 years later, corellating the pictures of the burning wreckage with the current topography. The mountains had not changed, the road and rice fields were almost identical. It was a no brainer. We found the area immediantley.
The LPDR 'allowed' us only 30 days to conduct recovery operations. With daily temperatures raching 120 degrees the US Army Mortuary Affairs Speciasts (92-Mikes) peformed admirally. For these young people to go into this environment and bust their ass for someone who died in a war that they never knew, is beyond my comprehension. They are truly going above and beyond the call of duty.
Unfortunately, due to weather constrainsts we were not able to complete our mission. We were only able to complete digging half of the site. JTF/FMA/CILHI subsequently sent another team which was able to complete the dig site and found unidentified remains.
The Lao Peoples Democratic Repblic (LPDR) personnel who assited us were very helpfull. Major Boon Ti was above and beyond reproach. He will always be a friend of mine.
Additionally, during periods of inclement weather, the LPDR allowed us to visit several cave systems on the Lao/Vietnam border. We were probably the first Americans to visits these caves, but I cannot verify that.
Almost every day we had to circumvent weather systems to return from the wreckage site to Sam Neua. We almost always wound up going north and west of Sam Neua, and were able to see Po Pha Ti several times. Unfortunately the pilot would not divert enough for us to get a good view.
Thats pretty much it. I wasn't in 'Nam in '69. I wasn't on the Mekong in Cambodia during Christmas with John Kerry. I was probably only a few years old when you guys were "in country".
But I was in Laos several times in '01, and '03, and had a few Beer Laos. I've been in Vietnam, Vihn province, and found the remains of Gerald Coffeee's plane, and I've been in Cambodia looking for the remains of more Marines than I know that are living. I won't be going to Iraq, but given the opportunity, I'll do what I can to help every servicemember come back to American soil. God Bless America.
 
Interesting reading buddy, thank you for your input :cool:
 
You are doing a great job and I have a lot of respect for you. There was a female MIA who was working in a leper mission around Ban Me Thout when it was overran during Tet '68. She was captured and later killed when she became sick, somewhere along the HCM Trail. Do you know anything about her? I would imagine you only work known sites, so she would probably be off the radar. Keep up the excellant work.

RW
 
A very interesting post hmcs. If you have more I'd love to hear about it. Well done and the greatest respect to you and your colleagues.
 
Zofo said:
If you have more I'd love to hear about it. Well done and the greatest respect to you and your colleagues.

Me Too!!!! :mrgreen:
 
Sparky,
I haven't forgotten about your question that originally started this thread.

I will paste my friend's answer here and then will make another post with an article he forwarded me. Hope this answers your questions.

RW

Obviously the movie, which was based on a book by Christopher Robbin (no longer in print), was interesting to me because I had the book and wanted to how much of it would get into the movie. Well, not much. I read an insider's take on the movie and apparently the screenwriter was replaced because the script "lacked color". So they picked up on an accusation made in the book, which Robbin later in the book says was unfounded.............and made drugs the key element for Air America's existence in Laos. Which is pure bull***t. Is it possible to smuggle drugs into rice sacks and ammo boxes? Yes. But didn't the cargo holds of major airline carriers do the same until 9/11? Also we carried almost all our loads externally, so we could jettison and maneuver if fired upon. It would be possible to smuggle anything that way. Gen'l Vung Pao was famous for financing his Lao mercenaries with drug trade because the CIA didn't cover the whole bill. They've been doing biz that way for centuries before we got there.

The pilots were a whacky bunch for sure, and some of their hijinks was hinted at in the movie. One thing was true they never left a man down, dead or alive they went and got him back. I have never flown with a finer bunch and that's saying something after flying for the 174th. But these guys were legendary from Diem Bien Phu to landing in the streets of Shanghai in '49 after Mao's takeover.

Long and the short of it, Air America pilots never willing participated in the drug trade in Laos or anywhere else.

(minor editing by me) Rotor
 
Sparky, here is the article that Mike forwarded to me. I think the authors were a bit touchy.

RW

Subject: Trashing History: Did Hanoi Make This Movie?
Date: Published: 8/28/90 (160 lines)
Source: Wall Street Journal. Copyright Dow Jones & Co. Inc.

LEISURE & ARTS:
Trashing History: Did Hanoi Make This Movie?
----
By Peter R. Kann and Phillip Jennings

Once upon a time there were two types of war movies: those
in which the American cause was just and all Americans were
heroes and those in which our cause was just, notwithstanding
the flaws of a few individual Americans.
These days there also are two kinds of war movies: those
in which the American cause is evil and all Americans are
villains and those in which a few Americans patronizingly are
presented as idiot-innocents in a villainous U. S. cause. The
propaganda point is the same, of course, give or take a noble
savage.
Today's war movies are no more subtle or sophisticated
than back in the days of our youth. Over the years, Hollywood
has simply transferred the black hats onto Americans and the
white hats onto almost anyone who shoots them up.
The latest example of this genre is "Air America," an
airheaded aerial comedy directed by Roger Spottiswoode that
sets out to both twist and trivialize the exploits of Air
America pilots flying missions in Laos during the Indochina
war. The film succeeds in delivering pretty faces (Mel Gibson
and Robert Downey Jr. in lead roles), talented stuntmen, some
spectacular Southeast Asian scenery, ample aerial acrobatics,
and a plot so moronic and mendacious that it might more
logically have been distributed by Red Star Studios in Hanoi
rather than Tri-Star Pictures in Hollywood.
For the record, the U. S. government did indeed support a
semi-clandestine war in Laos during the 1960s and early '70s
aimed at stemming the flow of Hanoi's men and war materiel
down the Ho Chi Minh Trail and at keeping the North
Vietnamese and their Laotian puppets, the Pathet Lao, from
conquering all of Laos. The main heroes in this bloody
struggle were the Laotians, particularly the Hmong mountain
tribesmen who suffered uncounted thousands of casualties
battling the communists with a modicum of U. S. support. In
the "peaceful" postwar period, while Hollywood set about
inverting war history on Thai movie sets, these same Hmong
were victims of a campaign of annihilation carried on by
Hanoi with means including chemical warfare.
There also were American heroes in Laos, primary among
them the pilots of the CIA-funded Air America, who suffered
243 deaths in action flying military supplies to the Hmong
soldiers or relief supplies to the myriad refugees from
communist aggression.
None of this, naturally, emerges in "Air America." Rather,
the Hmong soldiers are depicted as corrupt drug dealers led
by a rapacious Laotian general employed by the CIA, which is
masterminding the Laotian drug traffic to finance its wicked
war of aggression in Indochina, in the process actively
promoting the addiction of GIs in neighboring South Vietnam.
The pilots of Air American are cast as knaves and fools,
ferrying heroin and stealing guns, between their frathouse
pranks and drunken stupors.
This drivel is scripted with all the subtlety of an
"Animal House" cast reciting passages from Jane Fonda's Hanoi
diaries. By the way, it cost Tri-Star $35 million to trash
history and heroism in Laos; Air America pilots, by contrast,
were paid about $35,000 a year to risk their lives.
Now, no one who spent time in Laos (which the film makers
didn't) could contest that this war, like any other, included
some element of humor amid pathos, human foibles along with
heroism, smiles amid suffering. Whimsy exists in war, but it
is something vastly different from the crude stereotyping and
slapstick of "Air America."
Similarily, those who knew Laos would not contest that
opium was a traditional crop of some Laotian tribesmen, that
some drugs flowed through and from Laos, or that some
corruption existed in Souphanna Phouma's Vientiane, as indeed
it does in Marion Barry's Washington.
But the fact is that the main products of the Laotian war
were casualties, refugees and postwar communist persecution
and enslavement, not opium poppies. Air America was
specifically barred from carrying any drugs for any purposes
and during the two years the pilot co-author of this article
flew helicopters in Laos, he never heard of those regulations
being flouted.
The facts also are that Air America pilots were decent,
dedicated, disciplined aviators -- among the most
professional and courageous in U. S. aviation history. Flying
little Porters, lumbering C-123s or vulnerable helicopters
into hand-hewn jungle airstrips to deliver ammunition,
medicines or food supplies was no one's idea of fraternity
pranks. It is not surprising that Air America veterans, in
their outrage over the film, resent above all being depicted
as slovenly drunkards and clowns.
The facts, too, are that the CIA operatives, AID relief
workers and other American civilian officials in Laos who
were Air America's clients also were proud and patriotic
people serving their country in this sad side-theater of the
Vietnam War. They too merit honor, not mockery.
How is it then, after all the Indochina evidence of these
past 15 years -- the communist conquest, concentration camps,
exterminations, starvation, refugee exodus -- that Tri-Star
Pictures in the year 1990 still chooses to make a war movie
planting the black hats squarely on the wrong heads? And what
is it that leads the film makers to ridicule the honesty and
professionalism of these pilots in the process?
A few clues perhaps can be found in a Hollywood-groupie
article written from the film's Thai-resort set and published
in the current issue of Premiere magazine. Here we learn how
tough the poor cast and crew had it up there in the hills:
Mr. Gibson actually getting diarrhea, plumpish Mr. Downey
having to lose 15 pounds, a camera crew getting scared on a
helicopter ride, and the constant risk of AIDS from Thai
prostitutes hired as film extras. Small wonder, given such
suffering, that the film makers were of misanthropic mind.
Then there's John Eskow, billed as screenwriter and
co-producer of the film. Mr. Eskow, Premiere bemusedly tells
us, speaks with pride of having "faked a shrink letter" to
avoid service in Vietnam. This self-identified protege of
Abbie Hoffman explains to Premiere that he wanted to make a
"yippie" movie for producer, Daniel Melnick -- "a fun, zany
thing for the whole family, with laughs aplenty and big
things blowing up."
Like the truth.
Is it worth being outraged over any of this, over what,
after all, could be dismissed as just another silly bit of
summer entertainment? This isn't by any means the first film
to get the Indochina war backward or to belittle American
sacrifice. Yet this one, more than the others, lapses from
cinematic absurdity into political obscenity. And this one,
because it focuses on a part of that war that is largely
relegated to historical footnotes, threatens to become, for
all too many Americans, the pop-historical memory of this
conflict.
The association of Air America veterans attempted, during
the three years this movie was in planning and production, to
reach the producers and plead the case for some minimal tilt
toward historical accuracy and decency to its dead. All to no
avail. So the veterans are left to protest to the few who
will listen that this film "is generally and specifically not
true to the pilots and crews, the customers, the events, the
mission, the results, the policies, and the raison d'etre of
Air America. Not since the era of Ms. Fonda have individuals
such as the makers of this film expressed so publicly their
disgust and dislike for a group of American servicemen. It is
a shame."
The rest of us are left with the prospect of Messrs.
Melnick and Eskow embarking on a sequel a few years hence.
This one presumably will be about corrupt warmongers at the
Pentagon in cahoots with Zionist racketeers, sending 50,000
drug dealing GIs to the Middle East to launch a vicious war
of aggression against Saddam Hussein and his groovy little
guys.
---
Mr. Kann, the Journal's publisher, covered the Indochina
war from 1967-75 as a Journal reporter. Mr. Jennings was an
Air America pilot.

[This article is made available here by Dow Jones Co. for the
personal and non-commercial use of callers to this bbs, in the
hope that it will be of some help to those who are suffering
from the disease and others who are seeking to help them.]
 
Another top post mate!
I think I had the book mentioned quite some time ago but never got round to seeing the movie. I didn't know "Braveheart" was in it! After reading that report, the likelyhood of me getting that to watch is, to say the least, minimal. Maybe Robert Downey Jr. was on location to arrange a constant score?! ;)
 
Makes ya wonder. He would definately be in his version of Heaven.
 
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