Other Post AZOV Nazis or Not ?

[Black Pawn]

Mostly yes
But does that matter? those guys have not done any sort of serious war crimes as far as know, they are just group of armed guys defending their country who just politicly think other way.
I dunno, maybe because of my right wing views that fact does not bother me.

It will be a question for the court. There will be collected evidences, facts and their will be lawful sentence and jucified punishment. I think, that first hundreds of most dangerous criminals will be hanged up, and tens of thousand lesser criminals - will be sended to Siberian mines.

 

[Black Pawn]

Again I would ask, on what grounds do you believe them to be true?

It is a dilemma isn't it

Oh and Im not saying they are fake just playing devils advocate, I have no ide at this present time either way

For example, my double-cousine live in Mariupol (still occupied by Ukraine), and I trust to her and many other guys, including relatives of my friends and members of Russian military forums.
But you can believe to the USA-sponsored Belorussian "opposition", who, making apologied Junta bandgroups film (in style "they are not Nazies") was not enough careful in choosing viewpoints. For example, here:

14:88 "Our time is came".

 

[adicontakt]

For example, my double-cousine live in Mariupol (still occupied by Ukraine)

well you see , this is where you are wrong and not showing good will, how cand you say "(still occupied by Ukraine)" when the facto Mariopol is in ukraine , is not like crimeea
in antoher terms this dumb F***

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/russofashisto/72179828/198660/198660_original.jpg
from this site http://russofashisto.livejournal.com/35884.html doesen"t know that even Corneliu zelea Codreanu was a fascist , and a far right romanian nationalist , he hates russians

 

[adicontakt]

In fact, even their existence, as organised military force (not only Azov, but also all other "volonteers" bandgroups) is criminal by the Ukrainian laws. Robbering, murders (including murders of peaceful civilians), rapes, tortures and many other are documented by Russian and Ukrainian officials. Next Ukrainian government will not need even accept new laws, to punish them - there enough even already existed laws.

replace the word "ukraine" with "russia" , replace azov with somali , voloteers with cossacks and you will have another picture with what is now in donbass
not good , isn"t?

 

[berkut76]

I don't know of a SINGLE case when an active soldier or officer in "Azov" battalion was charged to say nothing of arrested for a serious criminal offense. And yes, to Ukraine's law enforcement credit, most of the "volunteer" formations (I wouldn't even call them battalions because the numbers tell a different story) have been disbanded and integrated into official paramilitary and military formations. Furthermore, plenty of individuals were jailed for crimes and some (notably Georgians) were forced to flee the country for fear of criminal prosecution. https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-tor...aramilitaries-kyiv-trial-crimes/28205795.html

 

[Black Pawn]

well you see , this is where you are wrong and not showing good will, how cand you say "(still occupied by Ukraine)" when the facto Mariopol is in ukraine , is not like crimeea

Sorry, my English is very poor, but I try to be as nice as it possible. My double-cousine live in Mariupol, still controlled by Ukraine, but she, as absolute majority of her friends, see Ukraine ("Borderland" in translation) as part of Russia, or, at least, as the part of some Russian-lead Union. She (as many of her friends) hates modern Ukrainian Government with their idea, that "Ukraine is not Russia".
Crimea is not Ukraine, it is part of Russia, we hope, that later Mariupol, Odessa, Kiev, Lvov will be parts of Russia, too. May be, @Conhoon have his own opinion about Lvov.

 

[berkut76]

Sorry, my English is very poor, but I try to be as nice as it possible. My double-cousine live in Mariupol, still controlled by Ukraine, but she, as absolute majority of her friends, see Ukraine ("Borderland" in translation) as part of Russia, or, at least, as the part of some Russian-lead Union. She (as many of her friends) hates modern Ukrainian Government with their idea, that "Ukraine is not Russia".
Crimea is not Ukraine, it is part of Russia, we hope, that later Mariupol, Odessa, Kiev, Lvov will be parts of Russia, too. May be, @Conhoon have his own opinion about Lvov.

Not going to happen. If your relatives like Russia they can surely emigrate.

 

[Black Pawn]

I don't know of a SINGLE case when an active soldier or officer in "Azov" battalion was charged to say nothing of arrested for a serious criminal offense.

Sure. Because current power of Kievan Junta is illegal by it's origin. Coup on the Maidan had drop country into the chaos.
You know:

"When that the general is not like the hive
To whom the foragers shall all repair,
What honey is expected? Degree being vizarded,
The unworthiest shows as fairly in the mask.
The heavens themselves, the planets and this centre
Observe degree, priority and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form,
Office and custom, in all line of order;
And therefore is the glorious planet Sol
In noble eminence enthroned and sphered
Amidst the other; whose medicinable eye
Corrects the ill aspects of planets evil,
And posts, like the commandment of a king,
Sans cheque to good and bad: but when the planets
In evil mixture to disorder wander,
What plagues and what portents! what mutiny!
What raging of the sea! shaking of earth!
Commotion in the winds! frights, changes, horrors,
Divert and crack, rend and deracinate
The unity and married calm of states
Quite from their fixure! O, when degree is shaked,
Which is the ladder to all high designs,
Then enterprise is sick! How could communities,
Degrees in schools and brotherhoods in cities,
Peaceful commerce from dividable shores,
The primogenitive and due of birth,
Prerogative of age, crowns, sceptres, laurels,
But by degree, stand in authentic place?
Take but degree away, untune that string,
And, hark, what discord follows! each thing meets
In mere oppugnancy: the bounded waters
Should lift their bosoms higher than the shores
And make a sop of all this solid globe:
Strength should be lord of imbecility,
And the rude son should strike his father dead:
Force should be right; or rather, right and wrong,
Between whose endless jar justice resides,
Should lose their names, and so should justice too.
Then every thing includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite, an universal wolf,
So doubly seconded with will and power,
Must make perforce an universal prey,
And last eat up himself. Great Agamemnon,
This chaos, when degree is suffocate,
Follows the choking."

And yes, to Ukraine's law enforcement credit, most of the "volunteer" formations (I wouldn't even call them battalions because the numbers tell a different story) have been disbanded and integrated into official paramilitary and military formations.

It's just a trick, you know.

 

[Black Pawn]

Not going to happen. If your relatives like Russia they can surely emigrate.

Sure they can emigrate. With their lands, houses, fields and factories. As Crimeans done.

 

[Black Pawn]

replace the word "ukraine" with "russia" , replace azov with somali , voloteers with cossacks and you will have another picture with what is now in donbass
not good , isn"t?

Why not? It's demonstrate your level of a discussion.

 

[berkut76]

Sure they can emigrate. With their lands, houses, fields and factories. As Crimeans done.

You guys are funny, and almost right up until the end you believed that the Communism will conquer the world. Crimea was occupied. Although, most likely the trade will be made, Crimea will become de jure Russian, but Ukraine will join NATO. The puppet republics will, of course be disbanded.

 

[Black Pawn]

There are sources, that can be authorities for or US friends:
https://www.unian.info/m/politics/1...-to-ukraine-call-azov-battalion-neo-nazi.html


"If there’s one simple lesson we can take away from U.S. involvement in conflicts overseas, it’s this: Beware of unintended consequences. As was made vividly clear with U.S. involvement in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion decades ago, overzealous military assistance or the hyper-weaponization of conflicts can have destabilizing consequences and ultimately undercut our own national interests," Conyers said. "I am grateful that the House of Representatives unanimously passed my amendments last night to ensure that our military does not train members of the repulsive neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, along with my measures to keep the dangerous and easily trafficked MANPADs out of these unstable regions," he said. "Ukraine’s Azov Battalion is a 1,000-man volunteer militia of the Ukrainian National Guard that Foreign Policy Magazine has characterized as ‘openly neo-Nazi,’ and ‘fascist.’ Ukraine’s Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who oversees Ukraine’s armed militias, announced that Azov troops would be among the first units to be trained by the Pentagon in Operation Fearless Guardian, prompting significant international concern."

Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/m/politics/1...-to-ukraine-call-azov-battalion-neo-nazi.html

 

[Black Pawn]

You guys are funny, and almost right up until the end you believed that the Communism will conquer the world. Crimea was occupied. Although, most likely the trade will be made, Crimea will become de jure Russian, but Ukraine will join NATO. The puppet republics will, of course be disbanded.

I have another suggestion - NATO and USA will be disbanded, Alaska will be de jure' and de facto Russian, peaceful delimitation on the Canada-Mexican border.

 

[Gordus]

You guys are funny, and almost right up until the end you believed that the Communism will conquer the world. Crimea was occupied. Although, most likely the trade will be made, Crimea will become de jure Russian, but Ukraine will join NATO. The puppet republics will, of course be disbanded.

There is only one thing to be said about this and its nothing new and also won't change ....

Ukraine should do everything in its power be it politicaly or elsehow to return Crimea before its all history and forgotten. I have no idea how that could possibly be achieved in the current state and affairs, I'm not omniscient or a military genius, but that's what they should do. Not try. But do. They are technicaly in a slightly more difficult situation now than Georgia and things could have been done better before the entire thing went completly down the drain with the effective annexation of Crimea.

Strategicaly Ukraine won't benefit more from being part of NATO than having hold of Crimea. The total opposite. If it remains how it is right now and they will remain in a massive geostrategic disadvantige, this will only be one or possibly even two of a series of losses .... this I guarantee you.

 

[Gordus]

I have another suggestion - NATO and USA will be disbanded, Alaska will be de jure' and de facto Russian, peaceful delimitation on the Canada-Mexican border.

So you want to basicaly put Russia in complete advantige without any balance of power and effective deterrents standing in the way to counter unwanted expansionism ?

I have a question for you. Why should Russia be that powerful ? Why shouldn't the Chinese, Americans or Indians etc ?

Russian territorial expansionism is something that has only been stalled by the presence of other powers. Recently however it has been revived to limited step by step degree and its a violent process that usualy takes thousands of lives as we withnessed in the past few decades. Is that a credible historical basis to approve of Russian dominance ?

 

[Talvisota]

Mariupol

occupied

by Ukraine)

what

 

[Black Pawn]

So you want to basicaly put Russia in complete advantige without any balance of power and effective deterrents standing in the way to counter unwanted expansionism ?

I'm ordinary man. I don't think about "balance of power" or "effective deterrents". I see somebody who pretend on my land or support Nazies, murdering my relatives (nothing personal or offensive, of course) - I prepare my weapon.

I have a question for you. Why should Russia be that powerful ? Why shouldn't the Chinese, Americans or Indians etc ?

What is the source of power? Wind, coal, oil, uranium? It's important, but most important source is the Truth. Talking from religion point of view, Russia is The Third Rome, protector of Christianity, and there will be no Forth Rome. When Russia will fall - there will fall all Christian states, and then world be ready to the born of antichrist, and some time later - our world will be eliminated.

Russian territorial expansionism is something that has only been stalled by the presence of other powers.

After fall of USA there will be rise of Australia as talassocratia (world's island, that now is USA, before it - England, before it - Holland, Spain, Venice and many many other, starting from Crite).

 

[Black Pawn]

what

We believe, that land should belong to those, who work on it, and can defend it. Most of Mariupol people recognise modern Kievan Junta as occupants, neo-nazies and criminals.

 

[berkut76]

By the way guys, if you think that Black Pawn makes this stuff up by himself... you are wrong. There are plenty of folks in Russia, even majority who think like that. Heck he is quoting Russian Christian Orthodox TV Channel (yes, in Russia de facto "state church" has its own National TV channel along with Ministry of Defense. Sometimes I confuse the two ) Too bad no English version for obvious reasons, but google translate works just fine: https://translate.google.com/transl...F-8&u=https://tsargrad.tv/&edit-text=&act=url

 

[Gordus]

I'm ordinary man. I don't think about "balance of power" or "effective deterrents". I see somebody who pretend on my land or support Nazies, murdering my relatives (nothing personal or offensive, of course) - I prepare my weapon.

But what you propose is not just home defence now is it ?

You factualy propose Russian dominance over the world and to achieve that, as you stated yourself, countries like the USA and defence alliances such as NATO and other deterrents against stuch notions, have to disintegrate. That is a quite explicit.

Of course you don't have to agree to any of this. But what I suggest may be an alternative we can have common ground on:

What do you think brings people togheter ? mutual benefit and cooporation .... ? or constant reminder of threat and intimidation ?
Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, the countries that were occupied and temporarily incorporated into the Union, or as far back as the Russian Empire, and got their independence back in the 1990s are to this date still referred to as "lost territories of Russia". How do you think such rhetorics and mentality are perceived by the people of all those countries ? if Russia approached something that mentaly, politicaly as well as socialy, shouldn't be even an issue in the first place, with a little more respect and acknowledgment of those countries' rights and souvereignity it would be a completly different political animal altogheter. The Russian government and also many people I know personaly approach it the wrong way all the time however. The false argument being that its a sign of weakness. No. The complete opposite. Creating a stable and friendly neighbourhood, some of it sharing a lot of culture and similarities around you is not weakness. It will benefit you in the first place if not mostly and you wouldn't depend on conflict and threats to solve issues.
What do you have to offer right now, except of social impediments due to centralised heavily observant and self-sustainment focused government, so so living conditions with rather low than moderate avarage salaries despite the country virtualy sitting on a big mountain of the most important minerals in the world and very little to non existent political credibility at this point ?
to achieve support and credibility you should respect others decisions, souvereignities and rights as well, not just your own. Otherwise division and conflict will remain, no matter how much you try to surpress the fact of it. History has to serve for something right .... ? being politicaly impulsive and uncompromising at start would be forgivable .... if not for the fact, Russia is continuesly having that approach on almost everything without changing in the slightest. In the case of Georgia for example, it's becoming worse each day factualy. Recent events being a clear testimony to that.

Can we agree that the progressive alternative would be better than what has been and is right now ?

What is the source of power? Wind, coal, oil, uranium? It's important, but most important source is the Truth. Talking from religion point of view, Russia is The Third Rome, protector of Christianity, and there will be no Forth Rome. When Russia will fall - there will fall all Christian states, and then world be ready to the born of antichrist, and some time later - our world will be eliminated.

Economic power, a country's output, sphere of influence in trade and positive, productive dependency of other countries. Being a strong political and credible global voice and fair in billateral agreements. Power and influence should not originate from fear and intimidation, which is sadly the case with most countries that have to deal with Russia and its not an unjustified witch hunt. It's out of pure historical physical consequence of the past 200 years. It's not a recent thing at all. I think that is what people should consider when they touch that topic. It's realy important, especialy if you want to argue with valid points.

Religion ? now that point highly irritates me.
You talk as if Russia represents a bolwark of christianity. How is it so especialy compared to Georgia, balkan countries, Poland, even most of Europe and many other that have very strong religous christian foundations and also fought for it many centuries before it took even relevance in Russia .... and decreased since. Russia is statisticaly one of the most indecicive when it comes to christianity ( for a primarily christian nation ) and also very diverse when it comes to religion in general.

I don't think in case of Russia ever falling apart, which won't happen any time soon and is also not very welcome at all ! as it puts the entire continent at risk of chaos, that it would have any meaning on relgious matters.

After fall of USA there will be rise of Australia as talassocratia (world's island, that now is USA, before it - England, before it - Holland, Spain, Venice and many many other, starting from Crite).

Rather unlikely that will happen any time soon as well and that too would be very unwelcome. What you should concern yourself about in the first place is to improve Russia. Progressive institution and communication doesn't mean you give up your souvereignity and military might. It means you become a credible example and powerful nation others are glad to have around and protect them if required.