Criminals Lenin & Stalin

Together

Two of the biggest war criminals and genocide experts the world has ever known.

Click to expand...

true, so true.

How do you guys see Lenin? I know there were a lot of people dying in Russian civil war, but that's true in many wars. Lenin led the Soviet government thru years 1918-22 and died already 1924. Lenin was one of the persons who warned about Stalin and said that he is dangerous. For me Lenin is just idealist and one of the founders of Soviet Union, but i'm interested to hear how do you see him.

Lenin was far from an idealist! He was just as big a dictator/murderer as the rest of the gang who followed him. It was he (with Trotsky etc) who created the "Red Terror" of the civil war and laid the ground for the extermination of the Kulaks (wealthy peasants). He created, with a minority "party", the Soviet Union. The population was decimated and the Bolsheviks came to power with the sword, gun and terrorist tactics. The execution of the Tsar and family was the culmination of his personal war against the gentry. Russia was governed under an iron fist; it did have the Okhrana (secret police) and the prisons BUT they were replaced by a system far, far worse. Lenin, an idealist? No! Murderer and maniac? Yes!

More info on the life of Lenin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

Interesting that we have had so different view of Lenin, i have never heard any real criticism about Lenin here in Finland. Stalin however is much more criticised here. I have now googled a lot and i can see, that there's many ways to see his part in all that happened in Russia/Soviet Union in arly years. Some sites see him as murderer as others speek about things he "had" to do in order to protect Russia and revolution and some sites doesn't mention these things at all. Perhaps I can explain how i have learned to see him by telling that for example on the wall of one older apartment building near where i lived before was placade with text: "V.I. Lenin lived in this building in the year..." and with a link to Lenin Museum in city of Tampere, it's the only working Lenin museum in the western world today. If you read the biography, you can see what many of the Finns know about Lenin

http://www.lenin.fi/uusi/uk/index.htm

And saying this does not mean that i deny the fact Lenin might have been responsible of horrific actions in Russia during his years as leader. It's just new to me and interesting!

Great stuff, a difference of opinion, yet in 7 posts no flaming. I love it. I dont profess to know that much about Lenin or Stalin for that matter but from what I have heard/read I have come to the opinion that they were dictatators of the worst kind.
I am very flexible in my opinions and as more info comes to me I am adept at changing my outlook.
Perhaps my prejudgements are flimsy at first but they are negotiable.

Thanks for keeping this thread as it should be, a discussion of views and info, not a place to abuse others beliefs but to enlighten ourselves. Now off my soap box with me sal;

I can't find the "quote" button but MM65, you mentioned "speek about things he "had" to do in order to protect Russia and revolution".
Lenin did not protect Russia or the revolution as the vast, vast majority did not want a revolution. It was forced on Russia. Those that supported the revolution were the "educated" city dwellers and the military. (A bit of a sweeping statement!) The peasants had been peasants for centuries and did not care for politics. They had been emancipated by Alexander II but for many there was not much difference. The revolution was forced through by violence and eventually civil war. The British and Americans even joined in on the White Russian side for a while but as the revolutionaries advanced through the various territories it was death or bolshevism.

You're right about the revolution part, it was a minority rule, but those who believed in revolution thought it had to be protected (ofcourse); and as i said i quoted the texts on some internet sites (not my opinion). That was what i meant with "protecting". It's the same thing with every dictatorship, they all have their secret police and opposition crushed.
Germany was also a threat to Russia in those early years and did conquer parts of Russia, am i correct? Interesting reading about those years:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUScivilwar.htm
http://www.historyorb.com/russia/civil_war.shtml
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/romeo/russia1918.htm
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/russia/lectures/28civilwar.html

Following below, a brief synopsis of what happened prior to and the beginning of the revolution:
Russia very unhappy with Bulgaria, which had attacked Serbia.
Germanys allies, (Austro-Hungarians, Bulgaria) threatened Russias borders and political free will.
Austria mobilised against Serbia. Russia supported Serbia.
Germany supported Austria.
Both sides started mobilisation.
Russia declares war on Bulgaria
War declared between all parties
Russian troops unprepared, under-equipped and poorly led. Defeats and very low morale.
Political agitation for the end of Russian participation in the war.
Tsar Nicholas II takes over as military commander and thus takes all the blame for the defeats, mishaps and problems in the country.
Lenin had been sent back to Russia (from Germany) supposedly for agitation in Germany; historians believe to foment revolution and take Russia out of the war, clearing the Eastern Front and enabling German troops to re-deploy to Eastern Front.
This is what happens.
Russian troops go home (highly politicised by the commissars)
Home front agitation under Lenin, Trotsky and the Bolsheviks.
Provisional Government under Kerensky takes over.
Revolution declared, Kerensky overthrown
Tsar overthrown and family sent into exile with him.
Executed in Ekaterinburg (Red Army held city during the civil war)
Civil war won by Bolsheviks; Welcome to the Soviet Union