Warfare PFC Garwood USMC, Traitor or Victim

[Zofo]

Just recently, I have been looking into the Vietnam conflict in slightly greater detail than before. I have tracked down many veteran's websites and am suprised at the polarity of opinion over this soldier. My current interest is in the return of US PWs from Hanoi in 1973 - and those that did not come back. Those who are missing and in some cases presumed alive, even after all this time.
As our vets are getting bombarded with questions, I thought I'd add my questions too.
Is there a balance of vet opinion (even on this site) that would agree on Garwood's status - was it political or a military affair? After all, it appears that there were US officers broadcasting propaganda from Hanoi who, when they returned, received only a slap on the wrist!
The US government says (as does the SRV) that there are no more US personnel in Vietnam. What do our vets think on this question? If not in Vietnam how about Laos or Cambodia? I would be interested to receive any pointers on the questions above. Thank you for reading this and I look forward to more give and take!

 

[Zofo]

Any takers?

 

[DMZ-LT]

Iconsider Garwood a traitor and it was political. I do not believe there are any POW's in VietNam , Cambodia or Laos. They would only be an embarassment to those countries today - plus we are getting pretty old ! :roll:

 

[Zofo]

Thank you my friend for getting the ball rolling!
Reading some of the sites people are saying or have said that there have been indicator numbers seen on the ground which correspond to pilots who were issued them before a mission. Could this be misidentification or is it a real thing.
I understand the age thing - that kept me wondering - as well as the embarassment issue.
It is an explosive issue tho' and there seem to be more than the gentleman Garwood involved in the traitor issue. From 1970 onwards the officer pilots say some of the enlisted men (they would say that anyway) succumbed to the NVA offers and did the dirty. A not unnatural state of affairs in any war. Any comments on the above more than welcome!

 

[rotorwash]

Zofo, I found a couple of mentions of Garwood by other POW's and the ones I read are of the same mind, a low opinion of Garwood. I seriously doubt there are any more POW's. In addition to the age issue, the idea that just because somebody was alive when he was last seen on the battlefield, he might have made it to POW status can sometimes be a stretch. The Vietnamese and Montgnards on our side had no qualms about killing prisoners and they were generally more humane than the NVA. Normally, the NVA didn't keep prisoners unless there was a political advantage to it.

There was one story I read written by a former POW that mentions Garwood rather critically, but he also mentioned that, while a captive, he saw an American medevac chopper painted white. Nobody in his right mind would fly a white aircraft. Ours were painted with red and white teeth and that was bad enough. I mention this because, in my mind it throws doubt on the rest of his story.

There is one charachter I am mildly curious about, he was an SF sergeant
named Jerry "Mad Dog" Schriver. The "Mad Dog" was well earned, he was the sterotype for every bad boy SF ever portrayed on fiim. His second weapon of choice was a hogleg pistol. He specialized in taunting the NVA. He would set up an ambush and have his Mike force troops pretend to be NVA to draw in unsuspecting victems. He was successful and was feared and respected by the NVA, but he had a deathwish and didn't ever intend to leave Vietnam alive. It would be bery difficult for me to believe that he survived long in captivity.

Interesting topic.

Rotor

 

[Zofo]

This sort of thing was never really top of my list for things to chase up but I did get innundated with pages saying that this bloke or that pilot was still alive and it made me wonder just how this could be. Did the USA not care about its people? However, reading further there are some sites, one by a chap called Joe Schlatter who blows a lot of the stories and rumours out of the water.
Thank you for filling in a bit more of the query regarding anyone left. I was pretty sure there could be noone left out there apart from the dead.

 

[dustoffer]

"There was one story I read written by a former POW that mentions Garwood rather critically, but he also mentioned that, while a captive, he saw an American medevac chopper painted white. Nobody in his right mind would fly a white aircraft. Ours were painted with red and white teeth and that was bad enough. I mention this because, in my mind it throws doubt on the rest of his story."

This is most likely true--I DEROSed from the 68th Med Det in Chu Lai in Jun '71 and shortly afterwards they ran a "test" to see if maybe the NVA/VC would recognize Dustoff choppers painted white and not shoot at them, as they could possibly miss the red cross. There were 2 6-ship Dustoff detachments at Chu Lai, and one had its aircraft painted white, the other 6 were left in the normal OD scheme. They also ran the same test with two units co-located in the Deltal Here's a site that shows one of the "white elephants" http://www.deltadustoff.com/Stories/WhiteElephants/tabid/86/Default.aspx

Never heard how it worked out, but since they have all been the normal paint scheme since then, I would say they found out the white paint didn't make a difference--at least not a good difference.

 

[Bombardier]

Great Info.
I doubt that the NVA/VC held much regard for the Geneva Convention so probably didnt make any difference.

 

[rotorwash]

Just in the last few months I found where there actually were medevacs painted white that were used right at the end of the US involvement. A major pamphlet campaign preceeded the white aircraft and some felt that there was a small measure of success although the experiment didn't last long before we left. The 2cnd NVA Division had a policy to not shoot down medevacs which led to the experiment, although as those of us who flew in I Corps well know, some of the NVA in the 2cnd Division never got the memo.

RW

 

[Unregistered]

when i was in nam 1965 1966 i heard of a us marine turn coat that was out there , never saw him but sure do believe it....

 

[GunBunnyInaMAB]

Speaking of traitors, does anyone remember what JANE FONDA did on Radio Hanoi??

 

[RL64RL]

Just recently, I have been looking into the Vietnam conflict in slightly greater detail than before. I have tracked down many veteran's websites and am suprised at the polarity of opinion over this soldier. My current interest is in the return of US PWs from Hanoi in 1973 - and those that did not come back. Those who are missing and in some cases presumed alive, even after all this time.
As our vets are getting bombarded with questions, I thought I'd add my questions too.
Is there a balance of vet opinion (even on this site) that would agree on Garwood's status - was it political or a military affair? After all, it appears that there were US officers broadcasting propaganda from Hanoi who, when they returned, received only a slap on the wrist!
The US government says (as does the SRV) that there are no more US personnel in Vietnam. What do our vets think on this question? If not in Vietnam how about Laos or Cambodia? I would be interested to receive any pointers on the questions above. Thank you for reading this and I look forward to more give and take!

16 years after, I'll offer comment (smile) . . . I believe there is enough information available, most credibly from personal accounts of POWs who were in the SVN jungle camps where Garwood served side-by-side with the VC, that Garwood was most certainly an opportunist and outright traitor. He likely didn't start out that way, but POW reports indicated Garwood clearly switched sides after he was in captivity. A good read is Zalin Grant's "Survivors", which documents what POWs experienced in the camps where Garwood served. As for comparing Garwood to the prisoners in the Northern POW camps, I would offer the following: the majority of prisoners in the North made taped statements critical of the US, and many of these tapes were broadcast on NVN radio, in particular those recordings of more senior officers. In the overwhelming majority of these incidents, the prisoners were coerced and/or outright tortured to produce these taped statements. Thus, to compare Garwood's willingness to serve alongside the VC with POWs forced to make propoganda tapes for the enemy are two wholly different activities.

 

[nobitadaidamvn]

16 years after, I'll offer comment (smile) . . . I believe there is enough information available, most credibly from personal accounts of POWs who were in the SVN jungle camps where Garwood served side-by-side with the VC, that Garwood was most certainly an opportunist and outright traitor. He likely didn't start out that way, but POW reports indicated Garwood clearly switched sides after he was in captivity. A good read is Zalin Grant's "Survivors", which documents what POWs experienced in the camps where Garwood served. As for comparing Garwood to the prisoners in the Northern POW camps, I would offer the following: the majority of prisoners in the North made taped statements critical of the US, and many of these tapes were broadcast on NVN radio, in particular those recordings of more senior officers. In the overwhelming majority of these incidents, the prisoners were coerced and/or outright tortured to produce these taped statements. Thus, to compare Garwood's willingness to serve alongside the VC with POWs forced to make propoganda tapes for the enemy are two wholly different activities.

both side used torture , the diffirent are American are much smarter of not letting physic wound ( aka don't direct beat ) a lady who was torture say the south Vietnamese was brutal beat her nearly to dead , while the American just threw her in a barrel and hitting the barrel made her ear drum pop , when they fail to made her talk , the south Vietnamese come back under the watch of American in a torture house and they beat her again , then the American heal her then threw her in the drum again and beat the drum , from the voice and what she say , the lady is extremely anti American ( she not VC or NVA and the video I saw on youtube a documentary by a American tv and a pretty old one ) and south Vietnam regime , cant have baby dual to her torture , while American pow also get torture at least they get well feed up north ( much better then most civilian ) Vietnamese now day joke if they parent can chose they will chose to be POW get beat to do a video tape but eat well for the duration + not to mention xmas and new year the pow were treat with turkey and other good food that a Vietnamese only can dream of during the war , most of my parent generation eat rice mix with corn ( include my mother and her sibling cause there isn't enough rice , but our familypre 54 was pretty rich so we have tons of gold that my great great grandmother used to buy rice in black market ( aka farmer from country side sold they surplus and used gold to buy radio or cloth or other item ) and meat/chicken and give to my grandmother to feed her children that why they eat much better then most kid , other family have to eat corn , potato mix with rice meat aint daily dish , same for fish or chicken for city household , some family will save up salary or ticket to buy a Chinese cracker box( it like a oil can size - pretty big ) at a gift to they children , some buy candy or east Europe chocolate for special day ( birth day , or pregnant wife ( my grandfather buy a chocolate bar at a gift to my grandmother when she have the first kid , the first and last time he buy chocolate during the war ( cause it getting harder to buy thing and food become rarer dual to the war / bomb ) , so like you can see American pow may consider they food ration is bad ( American standar ) but for Vietnamese who live thru that time American pow standar are dang high and they joke it like a resort ( no need to work , well feed , in a house that will never get bomb , good medical care )

 

[RL64RL]

both side used torture , the diffirent are American are much smarter of not letting physic wound ( aka don't direct beat ) a lady who was torture say the south Vietnamese was brutal beat her nearly to dead , while the American just threw her in a barrel and hitting the barrel made her ear drum pop , when they fail to made her talk , the south Vietnamese come back under the watch of American in a torture house and they beat her again , then the American heal her then threw her in the drum again and beat the drum , from the voice and what she say , the lady is extremely anti American ( she not VC or NVA and the video I saw on youtube a documentary by a American tv and a pretty old one ) and south Vietnam regime , cant have baby dual to her torture , while American pow also get torture at least they get well feed up north ( much better then most civilian ) Vietnamese now day joke if they parent can chose they will chose to be POW get beat to do a video tape but eat well for the duration + not to mention xmas and new year the pow were treat with turkey and other good food that a Vietnamese only can dream of during the war , most of my parent generation eat rice mix with corn ( include my mother and her sibling cause there isn't enough rice , but our familypre 54 was pretty rich so we have tons of gold that my great great grandmother used to buy rice in black market ( aka farmer from country side sold they surplus and used gold to buy radio or cloth or other item ) and meat/chicken and give to my grandmother to feed her children that why they eat much better then most kid , other family have to eat corn , potato mix with rice meat aint daily dish , same for fish or chicken for city household , some family will save up salary or ticket to buy a Chinese cracker box( it like a oil can size - pretty big ) at a gift to they children , some buy candy or east Europe chocolate for special day ( birth day , or pregnant wife ( my grandfather buy a chocolate bar at a gift to my grandmother when she have the first kid , the first and last time he buy chocolate during the war ( cause it getting harder to buy thing and food become rarer dual to the war / bomb ) , so like you can see American pow may consider they food ration is bad ( American standar ) but for Vietnamese who live thru that time American pow standar are dang high and they joke it like a resort ( no need to work , well feed , in a house that will never get bomb , good medical care )

Sir -- I have read a number of your posts on this site, and generally find them informative and worth reading. Thank you.

On this thread, I thank you for taking the time to comment and share your perspective. That said, I do not doubt for one moment that the general populace in NVN faced many hardships during the war, to include struggles with procuring food stuffs that they were used to from the pre-war timeframe. As for US prisoners in any camp (North or South) receiving nutricious meals, I think we will have to "agree to disagree", and most certainly in terms of the average prisoner diet in the North from '65-69 (i.e., a bowl pumpkin or cabbage "soup" served twice a day, and occasionally accompanied by a small ball of rice, day-in, day-out, excepting the holidays you mentioned). Further, they certainly did not receive what could be considered "good" medical care. Quite the contrary, as many of the POWs wounds were left untreated if they failed to meet NVN demands for propoganda. Perhaps most egregious, many of these POWs received lifetime wounds suffered at the hands of their torturers. These are all documented facts.

Otherwise, I admittedly have not researched SVN treatment of enemy POWs in SVN-managed prison camps, though I cannot imagine those camps were anywhere close to pleasant. However, I do know that SVN allowed inspections by the Red Cross, which is more than NVN can say.

As for my comments relating to Garwood, I stand by them, and I am confident my research supports them.