South Africa's Vietnam?

[Bundu Basher]

From a link on another site, I came across an interesting academic paper entititled 'South Africa's Vietnam? - Literary History and Cultural Memory of the Border War' (http://www.sa-soldier.com/data/06_sadflinks/sa_s_vietnam_by_gary_baines.pdf)

I thought it would be interesting to share it with the members of this forum for perusal and comments...

[03Fox2/1]

I read this paper and I must say I agree with the vast majority of what this paper presents, the premise is easy to follow and the examples do give credibility to the comparisons between Vietnam and the South African Border War. There is almost a parallel with the problems encountered fighting these different wars and the portrayal of similar issues that befell the veterans. The similarities are astonishing. However, I do take great exception to something that is advanced as factual, on page seven. I quote, " MY LAI AND OTHER ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY AMERICANN SOLDIERS WERE NOT ABERRATIONS BUT RATHER RELATIVELY COMMONPLACE OCCURRENCES." I can assure you that in the Marine Corps that I served with in 1968-69 in Quang Nam Province as a rifleman, 0311, a "Grunt", with the rank from PFC to Corporal, from "new and useless" to squad leader, I and my men committed no atrocities on anyone. On more then one occassion, many a Marine risked his life by taking the extra time to sight a target, to avoid killing a civilian, not easy to do in combat and not always possible. With the restrictive rules of engagement and free fire zones and the warfare of ambush and booby traps and search and destroy, our war had it's share of both mistakes made in the heat of battle and mistakes made by indecision or inexperience of all ranks. The enemy also used civilians as combatants, voluntarily or otherwise. The MY Lai-4 massacre committed on March 16, 1968 by the men of Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 11th Infantry Brigade was none of these, it was a war crime in every sense of the word. Captain Medina and 2nd Lieutenant William Calley and the men of 1st Platoon were guilty of the murder of between 300-400 people, mostly women, children and old men. The cover up of this crime for more than a year, by all ranks including up to the rank of General, was indicative of a system that was in dire need of accountability and introspection. This incident was atypical of the American fighting man in Vietnam and is one more burden carried on the shoulders of we who tried to fight this war with courage and honor, despite the constraints of a war run by politicians instead of the military, against an enemy with no rules. To not become what our enemy was, where the end justifies the means, was difficult, but I and those I stood shoulder to shoulder with as a young Marine, accomplished our mission and in the process brought no dishonor on our country or our Corps or ourselves. Our actions and those men on the "Wall" in Washington, D.C. deserve better than to be falsely remembered as either participants or silent observers of a practice of commonplace occurrences of atrocities committed in Vietnam. Semper Fi

[Bill Farnie]

Having never read anything on the SA Border War I can’t really make any judgments on how similar they were. It seems this author is trying to make comparisons with falsehoods concerning the actions of the American grunt. He keeps quoting Philip Caputo and his so called “memoirs”, A Rumor of War. If everything Caputo claims did happen then why wasn’t he brought up on charges of war crimes? Did he participate in a cover-up? Oh yea that’s right, he wrote his “memoirs” after the war ended so maybe in America’s haste to put the VN War and also those of us who fought in it out of it’s mind, it could be no one wanted to pursue any legal action?

I’m with you Scott and you know what, I’m tired of people who proclaim to be experts on the VN War, but who BTW never fought in it, but they always seem to get the old baby killer stereotype of atrocities being an everyday occurrence out there to keep the myth alive. That’s just BS.

[Bombardier]

Im with you on this Bill and 03fox2/1. Its a bad bad thing when people continiually refer to the US soldier in this negative light and based only on a few factual matters. Even today while our soldiers fight in Iraq and Afghanistan with honour and GUTS, the focus is on the few bad things done by a few bad soldiers and not the many many good and heroic things done by the majority. It sickens me.rbo;
I can tell you this my friends I see through all the negative hype today and in your day and I feckin well salute you all.sal;

[flash]

most of them have never seen war and still find the nerve to to say your a baby killer a murderer those hippy f@@ks of the 60's
/70s live in a countery were they can do that with out being arrested or killed for speaking out becose men fought and died so they could live in a free world. when the legion came back from the gulf we were spat on by students who will some day live in the real world i hope they never have to do or see the **** some of us have. most of us would love a world free of fighting were every one loved each other ......not me i love a good fight especaly students and friggin hippys lolbox; uzi,

[03Fox2/1]

Bill, I agree, there does seem to be a tendency to quote popular or successful authors of various books on Vietnam as the last word on authenticity and accuracy on this subject. There is a world of difference between books and movies, but both, more often then not, are out to make a profit and sometimes there is poetic license taken about the subject, to increase sales or viewership. I have all of the books by the authors cited in this paper, O'Brian, Webb, Caputo, Del Vecchio, Kovic and scores of others that are not as well known. My exposure to the writings and memoirs of many Vietnam veterans, as well as my own experiences, gives me a good position of knowledge and personal contact with the subject matter. I may not be objective, if you define objective as being indifferent to the truth and uncaring about the consequences. But if you define objective as being honest and concerned about the accuracy of the story, and of being emotionally involved, that is me. I remember with my head and my heart and I am as concerned now, as I was then, about being remembered honestly, the good and the bad. To hell with being politically correct and I will be damn if I will continue to be silent when those that know nothing of my war try to paint me and others with the brush of dishonor and shame, in order to promote a false image that is proclaimed by Hollywood and others in the media. Semper Fi

[Frisco-Kid]

Nothing that I can add to tell my feelings on this. Yours mirrors mine, boys. I, too, get tired of people that read 1 or 2 books on the VN War, that just happens to reflect what they believed already, and proclaims themselves authorities or experts.

Here's something that I like to ask people that state that atrocities were committed on a regular basis: If My Lai was the worst atrocity committed in the whole war, and if they were such a common occurance, what was the SECOND worst atrocity committed in the whole war? I'll guarantee you won't get an answer. You won't even get a "Well, it could be 'This one, or That one.'"

[Advisor]

I concur with Tom, Bill & 03Fox1/2. I've had it with the so-called experts who read one or two books & then proceed to make judgements based on a very limited range of information. These pseudo-experts who have an agenda..a point which they do nothing but search for support to bolster. Theology has a term for it..prooftexting. Find support for your agenda no matter what the context.
I do not suscribe the the belief that 'you had to be there, man'. There are volumes of information out there for the serious student who wants to know the truth, or truths of the war. The 'truth' of my war seen through my eyes, is not the same 'truth' as seen by Frisco, Bill, or 03Fox1/2. Our wars were different.
But there is one constant throughout ...war crimes..rape, murder, pillage, etc occured no more than during the Great Crusade waged by the 'greatest generation.' We were no better or no worse than any other generation fighting its war.
Today, my reaction to these 'experts' is, prove it mutha...if not then shut the f**k up.