The importance of historical items: Nazi-Germany

[ArcticWolf]

Ratel I thought I'd reply to you here to your post in the gallery:


Arctic Wolf, unfortunately, having a collection of this sort is frowned upon in Germany. If you've ever been to Germany you may have noticed that there is hardly a trace of WWII left here. Definitely no war museums with guns and tanks and stuff. People who collect are often thought of as being right-wing or facist or worse. The modern day German is a staunch pacifist, and the mere mention of war, guns, or military make them cringe. The subject has been removed from society. Thus, the gunroom pictured above remains open only to admirers, of which there are not many, I can assure you. I did ask him about a website, and even offered to do the design, but he said he doesn't really want to attract attention to himself in that way.


I've said this on another site, but I think it is worth repeating here too:


Because I’m half Eastern European, most Germans I’ve met seem to think that I will naturally hate them. What a notion!

I’ve always distinguished between Nazis/neo-Nazis and Germans, just as I distinguish between Soviets/Bolsheviks and Russians. There’s a massive difference that certainly most of my generation don’t seem to understand.

Germans (not just Jewish Germans) suffered by the hands of Nazis before and during WW2, just as much as other nationalities. The propaganda they were subjected to put a lot of pressure on the Germans. Those Germans who spoke up against the Nazis were quickly silenced.

Would you rather die today or live to fight another day? There is no right or wrong answer to that question, only different choices people make.

My mother told me of how she remember growing up in Lithuania with raids done during the nights (after WWI and long into the 1950s = 20million people were murdered this way; there are many massgraves) by the Soviets/Bolsheviks to ‘cleanse’ the country of intelligentsia and or anyone still claiming an aristocratic title (among many other persecuted groups under the Soviet era). My mother told me that it was shouted between the houses that the ‘Soviets are coming’. Not ‘Russians are coming’.

Russians as a people suffered just as much as any other people that were forced into the Soviet Union. Russians were forced to uproot and go live in the Baltic countries or elsewhere. They had no choice. Soviets were people from all nationalities who were ‘de-humanised’ fanatics.

The part of my family that are Eastern European suffered from both sides. Do I hate Nazis/Soviets? Does my mother hate either of these groups? No. Hate only affects the person feeling the hatred, so what’s the point. Nazis and Soviets behaved as though they had lost their humanity. They were/are fanatics. They believe(d) that they were right in all they did or said and everyone else were wrong. They only have/had their self-interest in mind. What do I feel for these fanatics? I’m not sure, but pity is probably about right.

Life is never only black and white. There were heroes on all sides. Just as much as there were traitors to humanity on all sides. We will remember them all.



In addition, I’d like to say I think it is very dangerous if what you say about there being no trace of WW2 in Germany today. Not only because I believe all these items are of historical value, but also because no one can erase or undo their past.

This is exactly why Neo-Nazis today can say: "there was no such thing as concentration camps, it is propaganda that the Allied forces came up with to justify what they did to Germany after WW2 ended."

This is also the main difference between Nazis and Neo-Nazis. The Nazis who even after the war thought the National Socialistic ideas were right, were proud of the "The Final Solution", whereas the Neo-Nazis claim it’s all Allied propaganda...

I’ve got a German friend whose children were told everything under the sun when they were in school because of their origins. It’s not right, it never will be.

Even if the person you meet is a nazis child or grandchild, doesn’t make them any different from us. Why should they have to apologise for who they are, they had no choice in who they are, just like us.

We shouldn’t forget what happened but put the blame where it belongs, not with the innocent who had nothing to do with it in the first place. The sins of our fathers don’t make us sinners after all.

[Bombardier]

A very powerful and well delivered post Arcticwolf.

I agree whole heartedly that the past is the past and blame is not and should not be transferable. As you point out things that are collected by people such as militaria regardless of whether they relate to Nazis (example) should not be hidden away, they are historical and should be cared for and studied. More to the point, they help us understand how it was and any mistakes or crimes committed then should not be repeated.

Brilliant post.....absolutely brilliant solthum

[ArcticWolf]

I just feel very strongly about this. Let's just say that prejudice has affected my entire life too. I know what it's like to be judged by who my parents are and their origins. I also know what it's like to be an outcast/outsider just as much as I know what it's like to be fully accepted.

One person's truth is never the same as anothers. That's because we're all subjective. We're subjective because we've seen or been through certain events in our lives. These events will set us on to different paths in life and we'll develop certain ways of thinking based on the 'truth' as we have experienced it. After all, a certain Adolf Hitler was a crappy painter, but showed great talent as an orator. Had his life experiences been different... we will never know.

Sorry I meant to get to the point...:rolleyes: hahaha... ended up in lala-land instead. :confused:

My point is that whatever happens in history, it cannot and should not be 'erased' and forgotten. What happened during WW2 has in many ways benefitted us all, not least in the medical area, and on the humanitarian side as well.

The medical research done in concentration camps were performed in horrific ways. But because of these experiments on human beings medical research took a massive step forward and patients well-being is today at the forefront of the medical professions' mind.

Wars/conflicts tend to take us 10 steps backward in some areas and 12 steps forward in others. It becomes a weird kind of balance.

Heck, I'm confusing myself right now... If anyone finds my brain, let me know... I could use it. ;)

[2nd Lt. McGee]

Artic Wolf, I would give just about anything to see you in person. I'm not a homo. I know what your talking about to a degree. At my school we still have racism between blacks and white, and I get really pissed when I here the word ******. I hear all the time where some white guys are going to "jump" a black kid. I just don't see the reason for all of this hatred in our lives, I mean it gets us no where. It's like a hot cattle iron searing into our society. I probably got a little off topic and I'm sorry but I just had to put my 2 cents in.sal;

[ArcticWolf]

Hey, it's a small world, you never know if we'll met some day, McGee.

And I most certainly hope you are a homo!!! A homo sapiens that is... :)
Not sure what I think about aliens... although if I moved to your country I'd be classed as one... al:

(Oh, and, I'm a girl :eek: , but don't tell anyone, it's classified info, shh ;) )

[2nd Lt. McGee]

I got a question, why did you tell me you are a girl when you want to keep it on the down low? Another question but how old are you? You don't have to answer if you don't want to. Where did you move to? Thanks for posting me back Artic Wolf. Have you ever heard of an Alaskan Malimut?rbo;

[ArcticWolf]

McGee, when I said classified I was joking. I know my sense of humour is rubbish...

I'm sure my profile tells everyone I'm 30, just click on my username. And you can trace back all my previous posts/threads that way too.

I'll be happy to continue our conversation somewhere more appropriate, like The Bunker. That way we can keep this thread for its intended purpose.

[2nd Lt. McGee]

What contributions did the Nazis do for the medical field?:confused:

[Polar]

If you've ever been to Germany you may have noticed that there is hardly a trace of WWII left here. Definitely no war museums with guns and tanks and stuff.
This is not truth.
This is short list military museums or collection in Germany

1st Armored Division Museum - Baumholder
1st Infantry Division Museum - Würzburg
Historisch-Technisches Informationszentrum Peenemünde - Peenemünde (http://www.peenemuende.de/site/flash/museum.html)
Luftwaffenmuseum der Bundeswehr - Berlin (http://www.luftwaffenmuseum.de/)
Maritim Museum U461 - Peenemünde (http://www.u-461.de/)
Militärhistorisches Museum der Bundeswehr - Dresden
Panzer Museum - Munster (http://www.munster.de/pzm/index.html)
Technisches Museum U 995 - Laboe (http://www.deutscher-marinebund.de/)
Technikmuseum U-Boot Wilhelm Bauer - Bremerhaven
Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung - Koblenz (http://www.bwb.org/C1256DF2004FF94C/vwContentByKey/N25T7NBC537ISHREN)
Westwall Museum - Pirmasens (http://www.westwall-museum.de/)
Hermeskeil (http://www.flugausstellung.de/)
Luftfahrttechnischer Museumsverein e.V. - Rothenburg (http://www.luftfahrtmuseum-rothenburg.de/)
Finow (http://www.luftfahrt-museum-finowfurt.de/)
Auto & Technik MUSEUM SINSHEIM and SPEYER (http://www.technik-museum.de/)

[Bombardier]

What contributions did the Nazis do for the medical field?:confused:

As far as I am aware,the Germans during WW2 were far behind in Medical Technology. I will stand corrected if anybody has any further information bou;

[Polar]

Germans (not just Jewish Germans) suffered by the hands of Nazis before and during WW2, just as much as other nationalities. The propaganda they were subjected to put a lot of pressure on the Germans. Those Germans who spoke up against the Nazis were quickly silenced.

How many they was? 1 procet or more ? When I read such opinions I think that propaganda neo-nazi is very effective. When war for germans go well they love Hitler but when Germany lost war they told that all terrible things was doing by nazi, not Germas. They try doing victim for himself but they was a butchers. In Poland we know how Germans try to falsify history.

Even if the person you meet is a nazis child or grandchild, doesn’t make them any different from us. Why should they have to apologise for who they are, they had no choice in who they are, just like us.
Yes thats right, but German Country (Gouverment) always will be responsible for this what happened during ww2.

We shouldn’t forget what happened but put the blame where it belongs, not with the innocent who had nothing to do with it in the first place. The sins of our fathers don’t make us sinners after all.

Did you see Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, Treblinka or other deathcamps? I see this place. I never forget this place and I never forget what happened


Sorry for my English

[ArcticWolf]

Polar, I understand very well where you're coming from on this subject. More than you seem to understand. I won't go into why any further than I already have.

But as I said, those Germans that spoke up against the Nazis were quickly silenced (read: killed), and therefore we don't know how many there were. This was an ongoing process from 1933 if not sooner. After all, the Nazis didn't win the elections, they took over by force. There were many who saw what was really happening and didn't dare to speak up after that:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/dictator.htm

Propaganda is a very powerful tool and it was shoved down the German's throat daily, just like the Soviet propaganda was to the East block up until 1989. The German propaganda was very effective because the Germans saw a lot of positive effects on their society take place during the 1930s: more jobs, a sense of unity and pride of their country. To realise, after WW2, that it had all been an illusion, and part of an elaborate scheme for power hungry leaders = the Nazi government, crushed them as a nation, and guilt has since been passed from generation to generation.

On that note, there were many other nations that hailed Hitler to the skies for creating work, and being such a 'powerful' leader of his nation. Sweden, for example. Lots of Swedes had Hitler's picture on their walls, because their leaders were not as strong at the time.
Sweden was 'neutral' but actively helped the Nazis until the war turned. There were plans to establish concentration camps in Sweden too. During that same time, many Jews were protected in Sweden (and many Jews were sent back to face concentration camps).

Fact remains, you can't blame the Germans of today for what happened back then. Just like we don't blame the Swedes of today for what their grand-fathers/ancestors did during WW2.

Items from WW2 needs to be preserved because we need to know and remember what happened. I'm glad you contributed a list of the existing remains.

[Bombardier]

Polar your English is fine and thanks for taking part in this discussion.

Opinions will always vary dependant on the experiences of each person.

Your comment about the German Government always being responsible Icannot agree with. The German Government is now made up of people like you and me, people who were never involved in what went on. As I said before, "Blame is not and should not be transfered".

There really is only one group of people to blame and that is the Nazi Party of the time.

Thanks mate solthum

[ArcticWolf]

What contributions did the Nazis do for the medical field?:confused:

Just a very short reply to your question because anyone outside the medical field and pharmaceutical industry will find this extremely controversial.

The experiments done in concentration camps were despicable. However the outcomes of these experiments on human beings helped us understand more about the effects of for example hypothermia (freezing), and the effects of certain medical drugs of that era. The link below will describe very grim treatment of humans, so be aware that you may feel extremely uncomfortable or even become noxious when reading this information:

http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html

Because of the inhumane treatment of human being during WW2 in particular in concentration camps, ethics and how to treat patients have been a very important issue ever since. Ethics is an important part of the curriculum for medical students in any country for example.

I believe part of the reasons for using the findings from these experiments have a lot to do with the fact that if we didn't, these people would have suffered and died for nothing. Let us remember and honour them for their sacrifice.

I don’t intend to go into any further discussions on this subject so this is the last post on this thread for me. Discussion can be continued if felt necessary via ‘private messaging’ (PM). Over and out.

[Polar]

Your comment about the German Government always being responsible Icannot agree with. The German Government is now made up of people like you and me, people who were never involved in what went on. As I said before, "Blame is not and should not be transfered".

There really is only one group of people to blame and that is the Nazi Party of the time.

Thanks mate solthum

Andy you are in error-German govt. gives 18mln Euro per year to organisations demanding renewed occupation of Poland-the organisation is led by Erica Stainbach-who was born in house robed from Poles by her father after 1939.

[Bombardier]

German govt. gives 18mln Euro per year to organisations demanding renewed occupation of Poland-the organisation is led by Erica Stainbach-who was born in house robed from Poles by her father after 1939.

Renewed Occupation of Poland ?, in this day and age people are still thinking about occupations and such like ?

Do you have any informational links about this Polar ?

[ArcticWolf]

The only links I can find on Eric Steinbach/Stainbach (no one seems to know the correct spelling??) are in Polish forums. These are basically saying what Polar said, plus giving info on the father of Stainbach who was in the Wehrmacht and that this person is a new Hitler...

As for people thinking about occupation in this day and age... oh, yes... I've met some of Russia's young and newly rich some years back, and they were all talking about the good old days under the Soviet Union, and how they would like to see it rise again to its former glory, take back all the countries they lost to independence, and then some... :mad:

They were frightening to hear back then, and no doubt some of them are quickly rising into power somewhere... rbo;

It's talk like this that leads to new wars. army;

[Polar]

Erika Steinbach- born July 25, 1943 as Erika Hermann) is a German conservative politician who has been representing the CDU and the state of Hesse as a member of the Parliament of Germany, the Bundestag, since 1990. She drew a lot of attention with her controversial plan to build a monument against forced migration. She has been president of the Federation of Expellees since 1998 (succeeding Fritz Wittmann), and besides that is a member of the board of the Goethe-Institut, the national broadcasting company ZDF, and the Landsmannschaft Westpreußen, as well as the national board of her party (since 2000). Erika Steinbach has studied music and been a member of concert orchestras before becoming a full-time politician.

and her story

She was born in the village of Rumia (named Rahmel under German occupation) in Nazi occupied Poland. Her father, Wilhelm Karl Hermann, was a Luftwaffe NCO (Feldwebel) from Hanau in Hesse (western Germany), who served as a technician at the local airport during the war. He was sent to Rumia in 1941. However,as an NCO, he was not assigned a confiscated house (this was typically reserved for higher German officers), but only a room. Erika Steinbachs mother, Erika Grote, lived in Berlin, but visited Rumia occasionally. In January 1944 Wilhelm Karl Hermann was sent to the Eastern Front and in January 1945, Steinbach's mother decided to move back to Schleswig-Holstein in northern Germany, taking her two children (Erika Steinbach's sister was born in October). In 1950, after five years in a refugee camp, they managed to move to Hanau. As she was the daughter of a German soldier only stationed in the occupied Poland during the war, and escaped during an evacuation performed by German rather than Polish or Soviet authorities, Steinbach's status as an expellee, and allegedly hence her suitability to head the Federation of Expellees, has been questioned. However, according to German law, she is legally an expellee.
Info from Wikipedia

Organization what renewed occupation of Poland is
the Bund der Vertriebenen (BdV) (German for "Federation of Expellees"). This is organization formed to represent the interests of Germans displaced from their homes from Eastern Europe after World War II. This organization contest Polish rights to land what was give after ww2 and accuse us for expelle. This people forgot that they was evacuated or or fled from the advancing Red Army in the winter of 1944/1945. Minority of them was displace by Polish gouverment after ww2 ( about 3 million). 15 million people were displaced from their homes and over 2 million people ( most of them during evacuation doing by German gouverment or fled from Red Army in the winter of 1944/1945 for example in Dresden bombing) were killed or died during the process, but this organization accuse Poland and uthers East European couitry for this.

Long time (until 1990y) the official government German name Polish terretory east of the Oder-Neisse rivers as areas were "temporarily under Polish [or Soviet] administration" .

[Polar]

And few links about political conflict between Poland and Bund der Vertriebenen about German WWII expellee centre plan.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=22034&name=German+WWII+expellee+centre+plan+angers+Poles

http://www.eurosavant.com/comments.php?id=P129_0_1_0


Germany Troy Hors ( Erica Steinbach and G.Schroeder)
http://www.wprost.pl/G/wprost_covers/a/1086_a.jpg

[Reloader]

If it is any help, there WERE those Germans who resisted the Nazis. An internet search revealed a lot of sources about them. Here is one:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july.html

To get back to the original point, this is why these artifacts are so important, so that people today can see what they look like and what they symbolise, in order that they will recognise any similar connotations in today's political organisations.
I only hope that if the neo-nazis do begin to rise in power, or seek expansion, many more people like these previous resisters, will speak out and if necessary, again be prepared to follow in their forebears footsteps.

[Bombardier]

Well said mate

[MakeWar87]

Tell that to asia the entire asia continent hates Japan for there selfish and unjustifiable acts in WWII. They still remeber it today I read in a book eagle and rising sun that they only found 52 pow in the camps the rest were murdered. I also read in northern germany there is still the feeling like war never left that some buildings are still in ruins and stuff i'll have to check into it more. The truth is people witnessed horrific events that they really had no control over and the easiest way to deal with it is to put blame on it.

I put blame on the french for being wussies, one time I called a french hotel about the time they denied the u.s troops and asked if the spoke german she said no and I replied your welcome. I look back and find that it was particulary cruel and made sense at the time but I am a blunt individual and if I may say so if it wasnt for the u.s france would be speaking german. I however put no blame on any country at this time about world war 2 i was only refering to make a point on the war on terror