Boot Camps?

[Bombardier]

This is a question for our American / Canadian buddies.

Here in the Uk we have a serious problem with unruly kids who cause misery to many communities within our small but beautiful Island, the authorities dream up all kinds of ways to deal with them in an attempt to put them on the straight and narrow, but nothing seems to work.

If you have or had Military style boot camps to deal with these nuisance kids, do they work?. Unfortunateley we in the UK have strict Human rights policies, which in my opinion and in certain circumstances are totally un realistic and silly.

A general question for everyone, What are your thoughts on this matter, could the military way of life sort out these criminally minded youths who have a total disregard for others feelings and authority?

[Zofo]

I'm not US or Canadian but there is a train of thought that wonders whether it is safe to have unruly kids who now know how to perhaps use weapons (if they didn't before then they are well trained) AND fitter than they ever were!
This boot programme did exist in UK for a while but precious few statistics about recidivism.
Borstals were considered as pretty much boot camp too - plenty of beastings, hard labour and mini criminals developing into major ones.
Are boot camps the answer, I personally don't think so.

[Bombardier]

Something I remember about my youth while growing up in the city was my lack of respect for myself and thus the lack of respect for anyone or anything else. I didnt know any better.

The Army opened my eyes to this and to the error of my ways, of course I voulnteered to join the army but I kind of believe that if managed properly these kids could benefit from the same awakening that I did, that is to say they could learn about themselves and as a result about other people.

I have a daughter who is 18 months at the moment and my aim is to teach her self respect and to understand the feelings of other people, the only obstacle I can foresee is that of peer pressure, I dont yet know how I will combat this, maybe a stint in the military will help. I wont force her into it but maybe if she wished it, it would do her good.

I dont know really ?, im just basing my thoughts on how the military has helped me and made me what I am today. Im not saying im a super human just that I respect myself and other people. Surely that is the foundation stone of being a decent human being?.

If I appear to have waffled on a bit, im justing thinking out loud.

[Zofo]

Self respect and volunteering are the key words here. I joined because I liked the idea of discipline in my life - something that was lacking having been laissez faire in attitude until I walked through the gates of basic training.
There are many people I've met in civvie street who don't want discipline and therefore are against this sort of plan from start.
I would always reccomend the military as a start - I don't know about a full career because you can become too indoctrinated into having a "black and green brain" - but, and this is only my opinion, to force people into doing something that they see as formal and total control over their lives will cause more harm than good.
I'd like to be persuaded otherwise though! :cry:

[Bombardier]

I would always reccomend the military as a start - I don't know about a full career because you can become too indoctrinated into having a "black and green brain"

Yeah, maybe a couple of years or so, it took me a long time to adjust to civvie street after my 12 years service. :?

[82Rigger]

Here in the States we have a couple of things going along these lines.

Re "Boot Camps"...nothing on a NATIONAL level as far as I know, but many LOCAL law enforcement units and local judicial units subsidize these camps. They're just like the military as far as discipline and "attitude adjusting" but nothing to do with firearms or killing. They work at building self esteem, will power, respect, and a good attitude.

There are also some "shock therapy" programs in which, say, a teen-aged driver convicted of speeding or reckless driving will have, as part of his sentence, a visit to the morgue to see victims of vehicle accidents CLOSE UP. It's not just a peek in the door. They stay for a while and see how the bodies are processed. Seems to work.

[Bombardier]

a teen-aged driver convicted of speeding or reckless driving will have, as part of his sentence, a visit to the morgue to see victims of vehicle accidents CLOSE UP
Now thats what i call shock therapy, just might work though.
Do you know if they have had any successes?

;)

[Zofo]

If as 82Rigger says - that programmes work on building the self respect etc then that is a good thing. However, I cannot see the military here helping out - a helpful Sgt. Major and a loving troop / platoon Cpl? Yeah right!!! :lol: :|

The biggest problem I had when I left was working out what people were talking about. If there wasn't an acronym in the sentence, then it didn't make sense! Also, no one seemed to be interested in the Soviet Army ORBAT in the pub!

[82Rigger]

Zofo,

Here's the way the camps work:

Picture in your mind the movie FULL METAL JACKET without the foul language or weapons. Sun-up to sun-down physical, mental, and attitude "adjusting" and if you mess up you have someone screaming in your face.

The kids learn it all...discipline, respect for authority, how to follow orders.
But even more than that. As in the military, they learn pride in succeeding, pride in accomplishment, pride in themselves. They learn that they can do things that they never thought they could do. They learn the feeling of working with others and succeeding as a TEAM. And when they think they've given all and want to say I GIVE UP, they learn that deep down inside they still have a "second wind", a little more to keep going.

For most of those kids it really works, because the kids' biggest problems are lack of self respect and having their priorities wrong.
There's nothing "loving" about this program...unless you want to call it "tough love". And it's REAL tough.

But once a kid in the program realizes for himself that he CAN succeed, that he CAN make a difference, then he's well on the way to being a productive person.

[Bill Farnie]

These boot camp programs do work but where the system fails is after they leave. Some boot camps provide follow up programs for the graduates, aftercare programs as they are called, and even those that do the rate of repeat offenders is around 50% and even higher where there are no aftercare programs but I guess if you save/help just one kid then boot camps are well worth it. Besides, it's much cheaper then incarceration in a prison/jail.


Bill

[Bombardier]

I guess if you save/help just one kid then boot camps are well worth it

Good point bill :)

[Zofo]

I see the points and can agree with them - "the system" is good at letting the side down tho' - who actually runs these camps then? Civvies or ex-military types as in the senior DS in Full Metal Jacket - he was ex USMC turned actor for that role?

[Bill Farnie]

The camps are run by both the private and public sectors and are staffed with some ex-military, ex-military with correctional experience and some without military experience but some sort of experience in counseling and criminal justice. The DI's are mostly ex-military.


Bill

[Bombardier]

Bringing this thread to the front.
Some interesting points already made.
Any of our newer members that have joined after this thread slipped into medicrotiy have any views on this?.

[John A Silkstone]

Across the road from me is the local TA barracks though there is no TA in Gainsborough.

To utilize the building it is now used by the Army and Navy cadets. My eldest daughter being ex Destert Storm and nursing sister was like a second mother to the young people.

These youngsters go away most weekends and not only learn military skills they also learn about social etiquette.

If you talk to the local police constables they will tell you that these lads don’t cause bother.

I think there should be more assistance from the government when it comes to military cadet units.

Silky

[Matzos]

My parents have had major problems with teenagers, it started over 4 years ago, with a group of girls and boys would hang around my parent’s house late at night drinking and swearing, my mother asked them to move on and that’s when the trouble started.
Over a period over 2 years both my mother and father were shouted at and at one time stones were thrown at their dog and at the windows of the house.

One night a brick came through their front window and my father had a heart attack, during this period I was on a tour in Northern Ireland, the RAF were very good and got me home in very quickly. The first person I met at home was not my mother but a policeman, he said he hoped I was not going to do anything stupid with these kids, I said I wasn’t, but if the police could not sort it out, I had friends in Northern Ireland who could and would. He looked me in the eye for about 30 seconds, turned and walked away.

My farther spend that Christmas and New Year in hospital and never fully recovered. The Doc’s think he may have had 2 smaller heart attacks before the major one.
It took another year for the problem to go away. In the end my mother, who was a wreck by this time, had CCTV cameras place around the house and they got imagery of one of the teenagers throwing a bricks at the dog and the house.

Then the police acted and now for the past year things have been very peaceful. That saying, my father in now in a home, he cannot not dress, wash or feed himself. The doctors have put it all down to the stress these teenagers put him under.

And before anyone asks which city they live in, their home is in a small village in Kent, South East England.

I have a view that all teenagers should undertake some form of military service, be it 'boot' camps or full military service. I think I have posted this before on the site.
A number of today’s teenagers have a total disregard feelings of others and authority, that saying, I’m please to say that my two daughters have turned ok, I put this down to the strong will of my wife and my military background. Kids can follow the correct path, as long as their parents guide them on the right route.

Something has to be done or this country is going to have big problems in the coming years

[Bundu Basher]

Bringing this thread to the front.
Some interesting points already made.
Any of our newer members that have joined after this thread slipped into medicrotiy have any views on this?.

My view has three words:

Compulsory National Service solthum

[Matzos]

My view has three words:

Compulsory National Service solthum

Right on!!

I do not think half the kids would last the distance.
In this day and age, most of them think life is a Xbox 360 or a Playstation 2

[ArcticWolf]

In short, I agree with the sentiments expressed here.

Boot camps or compulsory military service would definitely help not only this country but many other countries to produce more responsible men and women.

I'm supposedly part of the MTV generation... but I grew up in a family where we didn't have anything but a 15-year TV (colour TV mind you!) and radio to entertain us. I take more pleasure in getting out and about in nature than staying inside watching some programme that will be broadcast some other time anyway.

Today is only here today and will never come back again, so why not enjoy it right now?

[ArcticWolf]

Just remembered that there is a series that actually is something of a boot camp for troubled young men:

http://www.twentytwenty.tv/production.aspx?ID=1

This TV series is actually showing over in the US at the moment:

http://www.bbcamerica.com/genre/home_living/bad_lads_army/bad_lads_army.jsp#

Here is the Bad Lad's Corporal Richard "Nooky" Nauyokas:

http://www.ladsarmy.com/

And if you happen to know any bad lads... why not give them an application form for the series, or volunteer them...?

http://www.aag50.dial.pipex.com/badladsarmy.html

Anyone who's seen have any negative to say about this?

I think the series is brilliant and also that it shows just how needed good male role models are for young men today, just as much as ever.

[Eagledriver]

I agree with all of you, but there is one thing wrong with today's youth--the parents. There is too much permissiveness allowed. When I was young, there was the good ole paddling tomake sure we walked on the straight and narrow. Nowadays, if you paddle a chap for misbehaving, it's child abuse. If people want something to blame the current state of our youth on, I think they should blame child protection and human resources. Sure, they do a lot of good but they also do a lot of harm by mollycoddling children.

[ArcticWolf]

I hear you Eagledriver. There is a serious lack of balance when it comes to what punishment is appropriate when a child and teenager does something wrong.
A slap on the bum now and again never hurt anyone, and should not be considered abuse.

What upsets me to see when I look out the window at 10pm every night, school night or no school night, is to see all the 5-year olds running around with the other older children in the neighbourhood, all under 15 years old. These children are far too young to be out that late at night. Why are they not at home, and in bed!?! Where are their parents? Are they not worried about their children? Don't they care?

Most of the parents of today have learned their behaviour off their parents. That is the simple truth.
If someone is neglected or abused as a child, they will grow up with some difficulties forming a healthy loving relationship with their children. That is why I believe that all these children are out this late at night; their parents are quite happy staying at home watching the telly, or having a beer down the pub, because that is what their parents did too. They don't know any other way to raise their children than how they were raised themselves.

I know from personal experience what emotional (psychological), physical and sexual abuse does to you. Both me and my (half-)brother endured this from both my parents.
The consequences of what was done in your childhood stays with you your entire life.

I do not need any pity or someone feeling sorry for me. On the contrary, I need people in my life who accepts that this is what made me who I am today and that today I face challenges other people would not even think of as difficult.
Three years ago I finally found the strength to face my father and tell him what I remember he did to me and my brother. At the time, I was only aware of the severe physical abuse he was inflicting on my brother. I didn't know that my father was sexually abusing him too. My father never hit me, but my mother sure made up in that department. I still can't face the emotional abuse my mother put us through. Mainly because she still uses it as a weapon against me and my brother. That abuse is still ongoing and I have enough abuse memories to deal with as it is. The anti-depressants have finally kicked in and I'm feeling better, but I still have a long way to go.

I'm currently reading a book on how to stop the abuse cycle as it's now a wellknown fact that abused and neglected children grow up either abusive or re-victimised as adults and pass on the abuse or victim mentality to their children.
I cannot imagine ever being in a healthy loving relationship, nor can I imagine ever having children. I could never abuse a child, but I've been re-victimised as an adult. I'd rather not have children, because I don't want a child to see their mother being abused. That damages a child just as much as being abused themselves.

To get back to the subject at hand, I'd like to say that the boot camp idea is not a bad one. It disciplines and helps teenagers and young adults to become better adults, but these boot camps should be for those children that are already damaged by their parents or peers (in cases of severe bullying) in some way. The boot camps should be used as a last resort.

Eagledriver's comments are valid. It really should be the parents that raise their children properly, but unfortunately no one seems to know where the line goes for what punishment is acceptable for children/teenagers (age-appropriate punishment that is). This is because that behaviour is learned, not innate, in human beings. Anyway, that's my personal opinion.