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rotorwash
09-07-04, 15:13
The following is excerpted from Kregg P. Jorgenson's fascinating book, "Very Crazy, G.I."

"You a vet?"
"'Nam," he replied. I nodded.
He was overweight and balding and wore what hair remained in a ponytail beneath a battered green beret.
"Special Forces, huh?" I said. This time he nodded.
"You with the Group or SOG?" I asked.
He shook his head. "Green berets," he said. I sighed.
He was dressed in jeans, frayed jungle boots, a T-shirt that read HONK IF YOU'RE HORNY, and a jungle fatigue shirt with a variety of patches sewn on the sleeves. There were two colorful rows of combat ribbons that said he had seen combat but that he didn't know which order it came in. That was his first mistake. The red-white-and blue-striped Silver Star award was placed after an Air Medal, below a Purple Heart, and next to a Good Conduct Medal. His Silver Star also had a V device indicating it was for valor, which was another mistake, because the Silver Star is awarded for gallantry, which in the military scope of things ranks a step above valor. It is not awarded a V device.
A blue and white Combat Infantryman's Badge was pinned just above the ribbons with a flat silver oblong badge. The flat badge had a triangle in its center, and I didn't recognize it at first. Then I smiled seconds later, recognizing that I had seen it on the uniform of the officers who manned the bridge on the television series, Star Trek, either generation.
The combat patch on his right sleeve was an olive drab, subdued MAC-V insignia, while a Special Forces arrowhead patch was sewn on his left sleeve. On one shirt jacket pocket was a death's-head skull; an ace of spades was sewn on the opposite pocket. A number of Vietnam War-related pins were spread across the pocket flaps and lapels like shrapnel from an exploding surplus store, but it was his green beret that caught most of my attention.
The weathered beret had a Special Forces insignia, a French paracommando crest, and the flat black rank pin of a Marine lance corporal. The crests, patches, other insignia, and beret were an unusual mix of services, units and time warps.
"I got a good story for you," he said while I nodded. I don't know if it has been declassified yet," he said, and then shrugged, adding in conspiritorial tones, "Who knows? It probably never will be."
"So, who did you serve with?" I asked, beginning the process by working through the basics.
"Special Forces," he said, "Black Ops." I nodded again taking out my notebook and jotting that down.
"Not SOG, huh?" He offered a confused look in return. Since Hollywood hadn't discovered SOG yet, the public knew little about it.
I scanned the rest of the man's makeshift uniform again. It took a few seconds to realize he wasn't wearing jump wings; the standard U.S. Army parachutist badge. This was like a nun without her habit, a sheriff without a badge, or, say, Vegas without an Elvis impersonator.
"So where did you serve?" I asked, giving my best 60 Minutes Mike Wallace stare. It was a shame I didn't have a loud stopwatch.
"Where?" he echoed.
I nodded. "Yeah. Which corps area? When were you in country?"
"All over," he said, cryptically evading the question. "I did a few tours." Then he came back at me with more immediate concerns. "So how much can you pay for the story?" he asked.
I smiled. "Complimentary copies, a few free magazines if it's published."
"That isn't very much," he said.
"No kidding," I said. Sometimes I wonder if I should have taken up plumbing.
Mulling it over, the Special Forces Star Trek veteran reluctantly decided it still might be worth his time. "I just want people to know the real story. That's all," he said. "I want to get it off my chest."
"Get what off your chest?" I asked. He was quiet for a long moment.
"I killed Ho Chi Ming," he said finally.
"Who?" I asked, not quite believing what I thought I had heard.
"The Vietnamese leader?"
"You mean Ho Chi Minh?" I asked.
He just nodded. "Yeah, thats what I said."
"And you killed him?"
The storyteller nodded. "Yeah, on a secret mission. Black Ops. We were a special hit team doing a job for the CIA. There were only three of us. The other two are dead now. I'm the only one left."
I studied his face as he told his tale, thinking he had to be ten years younger than I, which meant that at the time of Ho Chi Minh's death in 1969, the storyteller would have been all of fourteen.
"I thought Ho Chi Minh died of a heart atack." I said, knowing it was a reasonable enough statement since it was in most history books and encyclopedias. I've always done well with the obvious.
"That's what they wanted everyone to believe!"
Some days aren't as interesting as others, but this one ws beginning to show promise. "So, how did you do it?" I asked.
"Huh?"
"How did you and your two teammates do it?"
The storyteller looked around to see if anyone ws listening, and when he was certain there was more interest than just me, he increased his volume. He went into a ridiculous story about it being a suicide mission tht the CIA wrote off. How they were parachuted over the jungle base where Ho was guarded by a couple hundred special Russian soldiers, and how the three snuck up on the North Vietnamese leader like they had been trained.
"Just you and two other Americans?"
"UH-huh. And while they kept the guards busy, I snuck in and blew him away, man."
"Ho Chi Ming?" I asked again, just to be certain I had heard him correctly. "And you reported back where?"
"What?"
"Not what. Where? As in, what base? Nha Trang? Da Nang? Star Fleet Command? Where?"
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"It means that I'd like to look at a copy of your DD214 if you have one on you," I replied.
"It's been sanitized," he said.
"Sanitized?"
"Erased to cover it up. There's no record of the mission anywhere, man," he said, more than a little annoyed by my line of questioning. "I told you, it was Black Ops. Top Secret! It isn't in my military records."
"Okay, then how about telling me which Special Forces group you were with? And when you served with it? And maybe a few names, like your commanding officer, sergeant major, or team sergeant or anyone else who I can check with to verify any of your story." Special Ops types are a close community, and like Mr. Disney said, it's a small world after all.
"F**k it! I don't need this s**t!" the visitor said, irritated by my asking for some sources.
"Neither do the rest of us Nam vets, sport, the real Vietnam veterans. So right now, I'd settle for your driver's license to check your birth date to make sure that the Special Forces or the CIA didn't recruit you out of junior high school for your remarkably daring deed."
"You saying I'm lying?"
I grinned, "Yeah, and badly, too." I added. "So how do you spell your name anyway, because I want to make sure I get this story right. It's a good one."
"F**k you!" he said, walking away.
"Is that with one F or two?" I said calling after him, only he kept on walking. God I hate those French names.

RW

Drone_pilot
09-07-04, 15:57
excellent ill have to get a copy of the book.

PS are there many wannabes in the U.S.A.

DMZ-LT
09-07-04, 16:36
Yes there are a lot of wannabes here. We have come full circle.When I first came home we were baby killers and drug addicts and no one wanted to admit they had served in VietNam. I actually had a woman ask me how many babies I had killed in Viet Nam - I told her never more than I could eat in a day. Today it is popular to be a Viet Nam vet and could find a wannabe every day if I wanted to.

Zofo
09-07-04, 17:30
Not just the USA either - this is a good link for this kind of thing http://www.cpmh.net/ - it covers the Australian side of things and is a first rate site.

drywall
09-07-04, 17:42
Speaking only as an "veitnam era" vet, I can say that we were all treated the same way when we came home. No matter where we served. The civilians didn't know the difference anyway. Nor did they care. It was definately uncool, to put it mildly, to be a veteran in the late 60's early 70's. I met a gal in a bar in 1969 and we were gettin along real good. Then she asked "the question" "Have you been in the service?" I thought should I tell her the truth and get crapped on or should I lie an try to get lucky. It was like that for years.

Zofo
09-07-04, 18:01
I've never quite understood the civvie position on this conflict. Elsewhere we were talking about the lack of political will to win but as soldiers it was your duty to go where the govt. sent you, right or wrong. As a part of govt. policy - being honour bound as an volunteer - it was your job. Later with the draft, could people not understand or realise that people were "pressganged" into the forces (I use pressgang 'cos I can't think of another word right now)whether they liked it or not. How did this situation and civilian reaction come about?

rotorwash
09-07-04, 18:05
A former LT from the 199th named B.G. "Jug" Burkett has written a book entitled Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its History and Heroes. In his research Burkett discovered that Vietnam vets did not have higher drug use rates, nor higher suicide rates, nor higher divorce rates, nor higher unemployment and homelessness rates than the nonveteran population in their respective age groups. Some studies suggest that Vietnam veterans had slightly lower rates. In the process Burkett aslo discovered the large number of fakes, frauds and wannabees. He found vets who had faked their service records with awards never received, people receiving VA treatment who had never been to Vietnam or even in the military. The frauds included convicts who exaggerated or fabricated combat experience to excuse their behavior all the way to a judge and a Pulitzer Prize winning historian. He has received honors all the way from the Army Times to Pres. Bush. Deservedly so. I excerpted this from the editorial page of Vietnam magazine, its good stuff.

RW

Zofo
09-07-04, 18:26
I've seen the book advertised on the net - may just get it!

Frisco-Kid
09-07-04, 19:06
Like the Lt. said, back in The Day no one wanted to be associated with us including some of our own. Now they seem to come out of the woodwork, inspiring whole books about them. The one described in RW's original post seems to be the stereotypical ones. I guess you can find these guys hanging around The Wall in D.C. [I've never been] thick as flies at times. Another common one is the homeless guy holding a sign saying "Homeless. Please help a Vietnam Vet."

Usually I ignore both of these types, but I've confronted a few of them over the years. Like illustrated in RW's post, it doesn't take them long to expose themselves with ignorance and stupidity. They almost always claim to have been a member of an elite unit. A guy that tells me that his records are "sealed" or he can't give details about his service because "it's still classified", always sends up a red flag with me. They can't just be a grunt, they have to have been SF, SOG, Mike Force, a LRRP, sniper, or POW.

Zofo, to answer your question, the people that called us "baby killers," etc., didn't care if you were a volunteer or a draftee. We were all lumped together as a target. I guess they figured that if you were drafted, shame on you; you should have headed for Canada. They couldn't fathom, or bear, the idea that there were men that had more honor or sense of duty than they did. Less than 10% of our generation served in Vietnam. We truly were the best of our generation.

drywall
09-07-04, 19:12
And you still are the best of our generation. All of you.

Bombardier
09-07-04, 20:14
We truly were the best of our generation

Your damn right you are buddy! sal;

Zofo
09-07-04, 20:38
Wasn't it tempting to revert to "in-country" tactics and blow them away? I mean verbally or with a bit of a smack in the chops? Not the best overall solution but a good temporary one!
It must have been pretty piss poor getting home to face that sort of f****g nonsense - it must have sent some folk back to re-tour?

Bombardier
09-07-04, 20:44
I hate people who try to take credit for something they have'nt done, I meet these people a lot on a daily basis, they really piss me off. :evil:

Zofo
09-07-04, 20:52
A bloke I used to work with had a step-father who claimed he was an SAS man! Quite a frightening thought when he was about 20 stone and half blind. My mate used to ask him what Sqn . he was in, his OC and other simple stuff like that. Of course it was all classified and need to know sort of crud. Anyway, after a dozen years or so step dad was dropped in it by an old work mate at the pub. My pal asked him what his step dad did in the army and expected some sort of tale...and got on...the correct one. His step dad worked in the MOD (Min. of Defence) as a photo archivist!! A civvie archivist on top of that! For some reason he'd walk around wearing a big blazer with the SAS badge on it - he didn't seem to realise that everyone around him was taking the mickey!!

rotorwash
10-07-04, 16:40
Zofo, to expand on Frisco's answer to your question I will offer the following:

In the Vietnam War we had some unique things develop. First, this was the first war directed from the White House on such a level (unless of course, you count the War of 1812, when things around the White House were a little "hot") that platoon (I'm not kidding) movement was sometimes dictated by planners in the White House. The term "micromanagement" was developed to describe this situation. Kennedy and later Johnson, with McNamara coming out of the corporate world, assembled a group of "whiz kid" analysts that thought they could actually run a war using the latest computer models to determine exact troop levels needed to gently convince the North Vietnamese they couldn't win. War would be run on the latest and greatest techniques developed in the corporate world. The reason for this was that Johnson did not want to jeopardize his Great Society social programs. Time and again the President turned to civilian defense analysts who had reams of printouts to support their advice rather than military experts who could only speculate on the future based on past experience when he sought strategic advice.

To make a long story short, the eventual upshot was that reality clashed with analysts assumptions and the difference was noted first by the military, then by the civilian population who recognized a credibility gap between what Johnson said and what was really happening. Tet '68 was the cold bucket of water in the face for Johnson that caused him to lose his political will and concede the war, after that, the protests really got going and as Johnson's star collapsed, the protest movement became an everyday event.

Toward the end of the war, a story circulated that when Nixon took office in 1969 all the data on North Vietnam and the U.S. was enterd into a Pentagon computer - population, GNP, manufacturing capability, levels of military assets, size of military - everything. The computer was then asked, " When will we win?" The computer responded in only a moment, You won in 1964."

RW

Zofo
10-07-04, 16:49
With such micromanagement (that's the first time I've heard it went that far up the scale in terms of politics and so low in terms of troop orbat) the military people on the ground running the war were cut out of the loop when concerned with strategy? Or were they in, ignored (as perhaps you suggest) and just got on with things tactically?
What a bloody bodge job!

rotorwash
10-07-04, 18:51
Actually it worked both ways, the military at the top either bought into the program as was the casewith Gen. Taylor, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, or they were bypassed and ignored. Unfortunately, they were spineless saps as some of them admitted after the war. The following quote is an example.

"I remember the day I was ready to go over to the Oval Office and give my four stars to the president and tell him, "You have refused to tell the country they cannot fight a war without mobilization; you have required me to send men into battle with little hope of their ultimate victory; and you have forced us in the military to violate almost every one of the principles of war in Vietnam. Therfore I resign and will hold a press conference after I walk out your door." I made the typical mistake of believing I could do more for my country and for the Army if I stayed in than if I got out. I am now going to my grave with that lapse in moral courage." General Harold K. Johnson, Army Chief of Staff, 1964-1968.

Most of the troops, younger officers included, lost confidence in senior leadership early. And yes, it was a mess. When Nixon took over, his nominee for Sec. of Defense went to the Joint Chiefs and asked, "What is the objective of this war and what is the strategy for winning it?" he received no coherent answer.

However lost the war was inWashington, the troops performed all that was asked of them and more. A noted historian and expert on North Vietnam's military said, "the historic fact to emerge was that the U.S. Army during its entire stay, from 1965 to 1973, did not lose a single important battle. It was a record unparalleled in the history of modern warfare."

Another point; I am not sure the American public as a whole lost their will, rather I think it was a loss of political will and the leadership no longer stepped forward with a viable expression of what we were fighting for. Consequently, the anti-war movement began to take over the media footage, and thus encouraged, they grew in exposure and rhetoric to a level far beyond their lasting importance. By 1978 the protest movement leaders had been politically sidelined, becoming an embarassment to the liberals who had originally encouraged them.

RW

Slinger
06-09-04, 03:44
So the civiallians didn't appreciate the Nam vets? If you ask me that's very wrong. A man risking his life for his country should get the highest respect. people should know what he is willing to do for what he believes in. I may only be 16, but I know darn well that a man in uniform deserves to get respect from the people around him. I plan on joining the army, to be more exact the marines, and if i go to a war, and come back. I want them civiallians to show the upmost respect.

I hate how a person could walk by a man in uniform not knowing that he has sacrificed himself to protect freedoms and beliefs and them not even caring. Just wrong.


Anywho. Good story. Seems liek a lot of imposters these days. Espcially in public parades, seems like every one has a uniform on, but you can tell the true vets from the imposters. :mrgreen: