WHO WE WERE/ARE

[Frisco-Kid]

Through the years during and after the war, the Vietnam Veteran has been stereotyped, usually into not a very good image, by different groups for their own agendas. The three main ones were:
THE WAR PROTESTORS- They felt that if they discredited us, they could discredit the war. Also, it somehow made them feel superior to us; justify to themselves and others, their unwillingness to go.
NEWS MEDIA: They put into print and pictures what the protestors were spewing. Had people sitting in front of their T.V.s watching the six o'clock news and selling lots of newspapers with the use of sensationalism.
HOLLYWOOD: A movie about soldiers annihilating whole villages for the sport of it, or mentally disturbed returning vets running amok, made for good ticket sales. Unfortunately, many people took them to be the truth and the norm. It's taken us years to disassociate ourselves from these stereotypes. Some people still buy into them. Many people still believe that the war was fought mostly by Blacks and poor whites, for example.



IN COUNTRY AND IN UNIFORM...

*Vietnam Vets: 9.7% of their generation.
*9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era [5AUG64-7MAY75].
*8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war [5AUG64-28MAR73].
*3,403,100 [including 514,000 offshore] personnel served in SEA Theater [Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters].
*2, 594,000 personnel served within the borders of S. Vietnam [1JAN65-28MAR73]. Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964.
*Of the 2.6 million, between 1-1.6 million [40-60%] either fought in combat, provided close support, or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.
*7,484 women [6,250, or 83.5%, were nurses] served in Vietnam.
*Peak troop strength in Vietnam: 543,482 [30APR68].

CASUALTIES...

*Hostile deaths: 47,378
*Non-hostile deaths:10,900
*Total: 58,202 [Includes men formerly classified as MIA]. Men who have subsiquently died of wounds account for the changing total.
*8 nurses died-1 was KIA.
*Married men killed: 17,539
*61% of the men killed were 21 or younger.
*Wounded: 303,704--153,329 were hospitalized+150,375 injured required no hospital care.
*Severely disabled: 75,000--23,214: 100% disabled; 5,283 lost limbs; 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.
*Amputations or crippling wounds to the lower extremeties were 300% higher than in WWII, and 70% higher than in Korea. Multiple amputations occured at the rate of 18.4%, compared to 5.7% in WWII.
*MIA: 2,338.
*POWs: 766 [114 died in captivity].

DRAFTEES VS. VOLUNTEERS

*25% [648,500] of total forces in country were draftees. [66% of U.S. arrmed forces members were drafted during WWII].
*Draftees accounted for 30.4% [17,725] of combat deaths in Vietnam.
*Reservists killed: 5,977.
*National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died.
*Total draftees [1965-73]: 1,728,344
*Actually served in Vietnam: 38%.
Marine Corps draft: 42,633.
*Last man drafted: 30JUN73


RACE AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND...

*88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasion; 10.6% [275,000] were black; 1% belonged to other races.
*86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasion [includes Hispanics]; 12.5% [7,241] were black, 1.2% belonged to other races.
*170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam; 3,070 [5.2%] died there.
*70% of enlisted men killed were of NW European descent.
*86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasion; 12.1% [5,711] were black; 1.1% belonged to other races.
*14.6% [1,530] of non-combat deaths were among blacks.
*34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms.
*Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.55 of the total population.
*Religion of dead: Protestant-64.4%; Catholic-28.9%; other/none-6.7%

SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS...

76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from lower middle/working class backgrounds.
*Three-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds.
*Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial, or technical occupations.
*79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the militaryservice. [63% of Korean War veterans and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon seperation].

WINNING AND LOSING...

*82% of veterans who saw heavy combat strongly believe that the war was lost because of lack of political will.
*Nearly 75% of the public agrees it was a failure of political will, not arms.

HONORABLE SERVICE...

*97% of the Vietnam Era veterans were honorably discharged.
*91% of actual Vietnam War veterans and 90% of those who saw heavy combat are proud to have served their country.
*66% of Vietnam veterans say they would serve again if called upon.
*87% of the public now holds Vietnam veterans in high esteem.

Courtesy of the VFW Magazine and the Public Information Office.

[Zofo]

Tom, do you think that at the beginning, if a full hearted "hearts and minds" operation was put into place, things may have turned out differently? For example in Borneo and Malaya the British went in covertly and then not so covertly and eventually finished the task successfully. We had National Service (conscripts) involved and I think that they took the brunt of casualties over the campaign. It is a different place and situation but the scenario is fairly similar.
There are as you state, many different media angles on this terrible war and stereotypes are bound to be adhered to. Moving "non-professional" (and I mean no offense here as opposed to a professional, volunteer army) into a combat zone must have had a debhilitating effect on service.
There are a lot of very interesting statistics above, but what, in your opinion, would be the percentage rate of KIA within the first say, month of arrival in country? The soldier cannot be fully attuned to his environment, no matter how much training has taken place and simple mistakes made must have cost lives.
I remember seeing the British forces returning from the Falkland Islands and the reception they received. We are a smaller country but in that situation we had the political will to finish it. In your opinion, what factors of "political will" failed the US forces in Vietnam?

[Bill Farnie]

I'll let Tom answer your questions but I need to say that the "non-professional" soliders in Vietnam , draftees , were just as effective as the "professional" in every way. Debilitating ? I don't think so.

[Zofo]

As I mentioned in the post, no ofence was meant in any way. I have never served in this sort of situation and was asking from a speculative point of view.
Any information that I can be given is more than helpful in trying to understand a very complex and difficult situation.
Thanks for starting me on the right track Bill.

[Frisco-Kid]

I'll try to answer these to the best of my knowledge.

Before we committed combat units to Vietnam we were trying the "Hearts and Minds" thing. As early as 1960 we had "Advisors" in Vietnam arming and training the locals to defend their hamlets, rice crops, etc.. These were mostly Special Forces [Green Berets] teams, a new branch of the Army at that time, that was a pet project of Kennedy's. There were also some CIA operatives in there mucking around in the government, trying to put a government in power that would basically be a US puppet. Most of these governments that we were trying to prop up were so corrupt, the population wasn't buying into them. The heydey of these tactics was 1960-64. As the North became more aggresive through their Viet Cong allies, we sent the first combat units in in mid '65. The SF units continued their training and arming of some of the civilian groups, most notably the Montagnards, the indigenous tribe people of the Central Highlands. They remained an ally, often an effective one, throughout the war.

As far as FNGs being killed early on, I don't know the satistics on this, but the law of averages say that this was probably true to some extent. I knew several KIA or WIA that became casualties within the first 1-3mos. of their tour. The 101st, and some other units, ran their FNGs through a P-Training [Preparatory Training] course while I was with them. This was a 1wk. course teaching the new guys how the unit operated in the field. How to walk point, be a point slack man, set up ambushes, etc.. This was all puncuated with PT to climatize the new guy. The most important part of the training was how to do a CA [Combat Assault] from a helicopter. This wasn't taught in the states. None of this was like the real deal, though.

Like Bill has already stated, there was no noticeable difference between a Regular Army [volunteer] and a draftee trooper's performance that I ever saw. At the time that I served with the 101st, it was still an all-paratrooper unit [This changed after late '67]. We had ALL volunteered to be paratroopers and there were very few draftees in it that I knew. It didn't matter what your reason's or beliefs, or lack of, was for being there. They were all eventually reduced to fighting for yourself and the guy on your right and left. That became more important than any ideals or attitudes you might of shown up with. Besides, it took alot of balls JUST SHOWING UP for a gun fight. Alot of our generation [more than 90%] didn't.

Where the "political will" failed us is a complex question. Like I've stated before, I didn't follow the political WHYS and WHERE-Fors too closely. For one thing, they didn't let the military leaders fight it like they wanted to. We bombed the hell out of the North, but it was VERY restricted bombing. In an all-out war they would have been bombed into the Stone Age from one end to the other. We also would have invaded them with troops. None of this was allowed to happen. That was because of our fear of the possibility of China getting into the fray. Maybe even the USSR. Personally, I don't think this would have happened. Their was never any love lost between Vietnam and China for centuries. I don't think Ho Chi Minh would've sought their help, being too leary about what kind of control they might want in the end for it. World opinion was another reason that we didn't punish the North more aggressively. Also, and I hate to say this, but it's always been a fact in all wars, there were alot of fortunes being made out this war, and I believe that was another reason that they let it drag on as long as they did.

Of course, alot of this is speculation on my part, but I hope it shed a little light on some of your questions.

[Zofo]

Fascinating stuff - I remember reading a book in the late 70's early 80's called "Vet". It was a collection of peoples stories from start (training) to finish (demob) and powerful stuff it was too.
This dealt mostly I think with the fear factor "in country" - the endless slogging through paddy fields, up hills and down valleys. It was very much a personal account - no real statistics as such and therefore all the more readable.
This P-Training sounds like it was necessary. Is this the same as Tigerland? The movie seemed all very real in terms of vets teaching FNGs the ropes but reading through your post I can fully understand the idea of fighting for your mate and yourself. I tried discussing this with the wife once and once only (we were discussing Desert Storm) and she would have nothing of it. She just would not / could not understand the sentiments. I left it at that.
Politics is a thorny subject but when there's money to be made (Afghan poppies for example) things will go on .
Thank you very much for helping me to understand with your first hand comments - a pleasure to read!

[Bill Farnie]

Frisco,
Very good post bro.

Zofo,
Tigerland was a location for Advanced Infantry Training, mostly troopers going to Vietnam with a combat MOS. It was at Ft. Polk Louisiana in the U.S. and like you read, all the DI's were VN combat Vets. The training Tom was talking about took place in Vietnam. When I arrived in 1968 the 101st had their own school called SERTS which stood for Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School. It was located in Bien Hoa and called Camp Ray and also staffed by NCO's who had been in combat. They had a realistic village with jungle trails with unarmed booby traps. We learned how to repel from a chopper and on the last day we went on a real CA and combat patrol outside of Camp Ray. Good training but like Tom said, nothing really prepared you for the real deal in the bush.

Bill

[Zofo]

Thanks Bill!
Once you had completed training and were off on patrol or with yoiur unit, there must have been a lot of humping and sweating with the odd contact? Or was it the other way around? Depending on your area of operations of course, were contacts a regular occurance or not?
The movies show lots of hideous booby traps, punji stakes etc littering the trails. Was this for real or overplayed by Hollywood?
Lastly, in "Apocalypse Now" we have Dennis Hopper (I think) saying that he loved the smell of naphalm in the morning and looking for surfing areas. Where these types for real, did they exist (or did you come across any).
With so much information floating around in films, books etc, one can only try and sort the wheat from the chaff.

[Bill Farnie]

Zofo, Very good questions for inquiries like yours always come up because of the way the Vietnam War and the Vietnam veteran has been portrayed by Hollywood. Now about booby traps. I found that it depended on the area you were operating in and what enemy you were facing. In my experience it seemed that if you were in an area that was mostly Viet Cong the more booby traps you would encounter and if you were in an area that was mostly North Vietnam Army regulars there were less booby traps although the NVA did use them. When I arrived in country I joined my unit in the field somewhere around Chu Chi and that area was famous for booby traps. When we moved up north to I Corp
to join the rest of the 101st and encountered mostly NVA troops the booby traps weren’t as prevalent .

There wasn't anything you could call an average as far as being in contact goes for me and my unit. Down in Chu Chi , only one time we were in contact but again I was only there a couple of weeks. Up in I Corp after we moved to Camp Evans we would go weeks without even any signs of the enemy but as the operations moved more westward towards the A Shau Valley things started to heat up some with contact every week in various forms. Sometimes we just came across trail watcher's , a sniper once in awhile or short but intense firefights with small units. The further west we went contacts with larger units increased along with the frequency.

I came across a few Gung Ho types like Robert Duvall portrayed in Apocalypse Now with one of them being one of my platoon leaders, Lt. Gowan. When I joined my unit most of the men in the company had been in Vietnam for eight months for they had come to VN as a unit. I was very fortunate because of that for the “old timers” took me under their wing and my squad leader, Sgt. Bayard , taught me the dos and don’ts of combat in VN. When most of them went home in December 1968 Lt. Gowan was the replacement for my old platoon leader Lt. Lungren. We met the new Lt. in our barracks at Camp Evans and while talking with us he announced that his goal was to leave Vietnam with at the very least, a Silver Star. He volunteered my platoon for everything under the sun. Every ambush, every patrol when we would be at a firebase, and when we were to do a combat assault we would be the first platoon into the landing zone. Our company commander, Capt. Hendrix (who by the way went on to obtain the rank of General and commanded the 3rd Infantry Division) put two and two together and had him transferred to an ARVN unit as a liaison officer and after a couple of months we learned that he was indeed awarded a Silver Star but lost his legs as a result of wounds received during the action. I have more to add but right now I have to get to a job that I’m doing tonight so I’ll be off line for awhile until later this evening or tomorrow. Hope I answered some of your questions.

Bill

[Bombardier]

Guys although I have not gotten involved with this discussion I have been reading with great interest. Fascinating stuff, really fascinating. Thanks for sharing this information with us. :|

[Zofo]

Jump in anytime Sir!
This brings me onto another question! I've read in numerous books, seen the movies etc that there were (as you pointed out Bill) gung ho types who'd volunteer to go to the opening of an envelope! Were the deeply unpopular officers "fragged" or is this something just put about to cool down the hotter heads there?
I think that the best book I've read about Vietnam was written by a former helicopter pilot who in the end found himself in prison for drug offences. He was an air cavalry pilot but the name of the book escapes me - it's currently in another country with my other books. How much helicopering were you involved in? We read a lot about "hot DZs" and such - bullets whining past the aircraft - your comments on this?
Lastly I came across a post - can't find it here - that Oliver Stone "one of our own" let the side down with "Platoon". I saw the film several times and was quite impressed with a lot of the sequences. In what way did he not show the real thing? I know his JFK film got slated of inaccuracy but was it the interplay between the two sergeants or just a general "not accurate"?

[Bombardier]

I found this film strange in that there appeared to be no defined battle lines and the combat scenes lead you to believe that the enemy is everywhere, was it like this?, was the tactical situation such that any real and effective operational planning was non existent and patrols were just placed into the hulu at random in the hope that the intellgence that put them there was correct.

The line between good and evil in Platoon seemed blurred or non-existent . Sergeant Elias is portrayed as a caring, intelligent leader who escapes reality through the use of drugs. His nemesis, Sergeant Barnes, is portrayed as an efficient fighting machine who will stop at nothing to get the job done.

Why do you think drugs were so prevelant in Vietnam, and what could have been done to stop it ?.

What are your thoughts on the higher echelons of leadership in vietnam?

[Bill Farnie]

Zofo and Webmaster,

I don’t know about fragging. It didn’t happen in my unit. Even as much as Lt. Gowan was despised, it never crossed our minds to do him harm. I don’t think anyone would have cared if he had gotten zapped while he was our platoon leader but murder one of our own?, that’s just Hollywood bullsh**. This brings me to the movie Platoon.
Stone did capture, through cinematography, some what of how it was like in Vietnam. The first 30, 40 minutes or so of the movie was to me pretty good film making. A quick side note on that, I went to see Platoon with my wife when it first came out and when they were setup in the ambush site and the NVA were approaching Charlie Sheens position I saw the NVA soldier before it became apparent that they were there and as they got closer and closer I yelled out, in a completely quiet theater, BLOW THE AMBUSH !!! BLOW THE AMBUSH !!!! That’s how realistically Stone captured some scenes but the overall premise of the good Sgt vs. the bad Sgt. was a load of donkey dung and the killings in the village and GI killing GI story lines did, as Tom has already stated, a dis-service to the Vietnam Vet.

The enemy wasn’t everywhere but there were certain areas in Vietnam that were used by him that were called Base Areas which he had large and sophisticated bunker and tunnel complexes.

Drugs, and I’m talking about pot, weren’t used in the bush ever by the men in my unit. Back at Base Camp or what we knew to be a relatively safe Firebase pot was smoked. Heroin was not used when I was in Nam. I think that as the U.S. pulled out troops and they were mostly doing defensive chores, drug use in general and heroin in particular rose.

As far as leadership goes, I can only comment on the leaders in my unit up to battalion level. Above battalion level I wouldn’t have a clue other then knowing that whatever they decided on affected us all. For the most part I had good leadership. As much as we didn’t like Lt. Gowan I cannot say he made bad judgments when we were in combat. The only exception was a company commander we had named Capt. Ditchfield. Ditchfield was a total fuckup and was directly responsible for the deaths of 20 men including our Battalion Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Arnold Courtney Hayward, and the wounding of 26 men. I’ll get into more details of that battle this coming July, on the anniversary of it, if I can.

[Bombardier]

Ditchfield was a total fuckup and was directly responsible for the deaths of 20 men including our Battalion Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Arnold Courtney Hayward, and the wounding of 26 men

To lose men in combat is one thing but to lose men because of the stupidity of a commander is a total and utter tragedy. If the man is still alive Im sure he is suffering now. Perhaps he wasnt ready for his command and was pressured in some way.

I dont know , just trying to find some logic in all the madness.

A great big salute to you all.

[Bill Farnie]

Webmaster,
The fastest way for an officer in the U.S. Army to get promoted is to command an infantry unit in combat. That's why Ditchfield was our CO. He came to us from the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment where he had been a pencil pusher looking to advance in rank. He had no combat experience and probably very little infantry training. He was completely incompetent. The reason our battalion commander was KIA was he had joined us in the battle to take command from Ditchfield. Even though I didn't have the rank, I was a squad leader. After the battle Ditchfield called all platoon leaders, platoon sergeants, and squad leaders (those of us who were left) to a meeting and he had the gall to give a critique of how the battle was fought. He was a total nut case and I doubt that he has any idea, let alone any remorse on how his lack of leadership quality caused so many casualties. He was relieved of his command shortly after the battle. I do pray that if he is still living that he is haunted every day with the memories of that day as I am but I don't think so.

Bill

[Frisco-Kid]

Would first like to expand on what Bill was saying about making contact with Charlie. Pretty much the same in my time there. If we were doing operations in a predominantly VC area we usually had more casualties due to booby traps than direct contact. If in a heavy NVA area [mostly the Central Highlands for me] there was more sustained contact. Contact with the VC was usually hit and run, small, fierce battles. The NVA would stand and fight and you knew you were in for a tough day/night. Their favorite tactic was to cut off a small unit from a big one, and overpower it with superior numbers. We knew that. A favorite tactic of the 101st was to send a smaller unit out [bait] and reinforce it with a larger one when contact was made. An attempt to over run my company occured one night. They managed to get inside our perimeter for a time. By daylight we had 7 dead, and 18-20 wounded.

The VC were more of a true guerilla force, while the NVA was a more conventional army like ourselves. The VC were found further south and along the Coastal Plain, with the NVA being further north [closer to the DMZ] and in the Northern Central Highlands along the borders of Laos and Cambodia [The Ho Chi Minh Trail].

The VC weren't as well equipped sometimes as the NVA. They often had a hodge podge of weaponry, usually small arms. We did, however, uncover some large weapons caches from time to time. They didn't wear uniforms, as such, and blended in with the general population, in fact often residents of their AO. The NVA usually were in uniform, had better weaponry with more mortars and RPGs. Like us, they often ran company sized operations, or larger. Often there would be a whole regiment workng an AO. They were quite organized and tenacious. It would often take nothing less than an artillary barrage, gunships, or airstrikes to make them break contact.

Fragging- I really can't comment on this. I never saw or heard of it on my first tour, and had heard A LITTLE BIT of it occuring on my second tour. I think this was a phenomonon that was later in the war. I, personally don't think it was very common....just got alot of press and lip.

Helicoptors- These were the work horses of the war. As an infantryman, I rode in alot of these. This was how we got inserted into and extracted from the bush. Every infantry unit used them except Mechanized Infantry, I guess. It could be quite hairy going into a Hot LZ. The bottoms of the choppers weren't armored, so we would sometimes sit on our helmets for what little protection that might afford, which probably wasn't much :lol: . If it was too hot, the insertion would be scrubbed and we would be taken to another one if available. A CA was often pretty scary, hot or cold. I always hated being on the first or second chopper, especially into a small LZ that could only accomodate 2-3 helicoptors at a time. One of Charlie's favorite tactics was to let the first helicoptors get us on the ground, and then hit us. The choppers never touched down. They would hover 4-5ft. and you would jump out. At that instant, you were quite vulnerable. On a small LZ it could be some close fighting. They would crowd us enough to where we couldn't bring in gunships or arty. You just never knew what was waiting for you.

"PLATOON"- I only saw this movie once, when it first came out. I didn't like it enough to ever watch it again. It pretty much lost me when the guy killed the old woman in the hootch. Almost walked out then, but was with other people.
First, the fued between the sargeants was pure Hollywood BS. This would never have been allowed to go on in any line company that I was in. I was disappointed that Stone had to enhance his story with atrocities being committed, and insinuating that the use of dope was the norm and done by the majority [perpetuating the stereotype]. I seem to remember some of the battle scenes being pretty accurate. Stone served with the 25th ID, a unit with a long, distinguished history in VN. I just think he had a chance to put his unit and brothers in a better light by drawing off of some real incidents, like "WE WERE SOLDIERS..........", and sold them out for the bucks and personal fame. Another Vet that has watched this movie more recently, or more often, than me can comment on it better. However, I don't recall ever talking to another mud-soldier that totally bought into this as an accurate portrayal of us.

DRUGS- I'm not going to try to tell you that they weren't there. They were readily available and CHEAP. In a line unit it was an unwritten law that they WERE NOT USED in the field. You couldn't keep yourself or your buddies alive very long with your brain in a fog. While with the 101st, I only saw them used the few times we were on a firebase for a stand down, or back at our basecamp in Phan Rang getting re-equipped. When I was assigned to a convoy security unit in Cam Ranh Bay on my second tour, it was more prevailant. This was a HUGE base with 90% of the REMFS there never leaving it's confines for their whole tour. It was my observation that drug use was alot more prevailant in the rear. As far as stopping it, I don't have the answer. I think the military was content with looking the other way, as long as it didn't get to obnoxiously out of hand. I heard of a couple of guys getting busted for it, but not too often. Alcohol has been an accepted vice in the military for generations, in fact encouraged by easy accessibility [EM, NCO, and Officers Clubs]. They know the dangers of boredom. I don't think they thought of it as a "BIG" problem. Looked at it as an acceptable diversion. These are just my opinions.

LEADERSHIP- For the most part, I served under some excellent line officers as a grunt. I usually felt that they had our safety as a priority. I'm talking about Platoon Leaders and Company Commanders. The ones out there with us. Some of the field-grade officers [Major and above] were different. Some of them didn't have a clue what we were enduring or facing at times. They usually tried to command a battle from a command helicoptor well above the action, not being able to have a real knowledge of the terrain, vegetation, or enemy resistance that we were facing at times. I saw our line officers stand up against senior officers a couple of times. We had a couple of bad ones rotate through a couple of times, but they often didn't last long if they weren't willing to learn. One of the worst practices of the war, in my opinion, was that line officers only did a 6mos. tour on the line. The transition to a new officer was sometimes hard on a unit, be it a platoon or a company. Was often detrimental to the coesion and continuity of a unit. So was the rotating out of the more experienced personnel. To me, this was one more example of our government's lack of commitment to total war.

[Zofo]

Lots more clarity - thank you very much!
As has been stated several times above, atrocities have been overplayed and overexposed but My Lai happened and there have been media reports (whether set up or not) showing soldiers putting Ace of Spades cards into dead peoples mouths.
Reading through accounts of My Lai it seems that the cr*p rolled down hill with all the senior ranks evading guilt whilst the lowest rank (and guilty as charged) carried the can. Nevertheless, incidents such as this did happen and should not be glossed over. Whatever Mr. Stone and others may have put into their films, could it be something to acknowledge that it did happen, if only rarely?
It is alleged that "Tiger Force" of the 101 were up to no good in 1967 so this cannot be swept under the carpet.
http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html - this is a good link to Presidential hopeful John Kerry - his views from 1971 and how they differ now. Very good reading.

Unfortunately for lots of soldiers, the actions of a few mar the actions of the majority. In the Falklands, a soldier claimed that he had witnessed the "executions" of US snipers on Mount Longdon - the officers decreed that there would be political fallout if they were captured so they were shot and thrown down the mountainside. The MOD took the claims seriously and sent CID plod out to check up. They found nothing. Doesn't mean to say it didn't happen.

Lastly, many films and books mention, without saying much further about the "Arclight" raids. Did any of our vets witness these raids as such?

Once again, thanks for being so frank!

[Frisco-Kid]

MY LAI- Yes, unfortunately, this did happen, to the detriment of every soldier to have ever served in Vietnam. It gave substance and a face to the allegations that had been being spread for years. I never met one grunt that sided with Calley. I think he got what he deserved. I've also always felt that it was a travesty of justice that Cpt. Medina, his CO, wasn't his cellmate.



TIGER FORCE- This was the Recon platoon for 1/327, 101st Abn.. I was in the 2/502. A recon platoon IS NOT some sort of SPECIAL OPS unit that the articles on this incident would have you believe. Every battalion had a recon platoon. The one criteria to be in a recon platoon was no FNGs, otherwise they were just regular Line Doggies. There job was reconaissance [sp], period.

This incident supposedly covered a 6mos. period while the 101st was operating in the Song Ve valley, near Duc Pho. This operation was named Malheur I and Malheur II. The end of APR, or the first part of MAY67 my battalion, 2/502, and 1/327 did a CA into the mountains west of Duc Pho. The second day the other battalion, 2/327, CAd in as a blocking force. This was the kick-off of Malheur I. We were to do a Search and Destroy through the mountains, securing them. This was HEAVY VC country.

After sweeping the mountains for about a month or so, we were moved down into the valleys and the coastal plains. This was the start of Malheur II. We were to evacuate all of the villages in the Song Ve and other valleys in the AO. There were also some ARVN units involved in this. Every person, dog, chicken, and water buffalo was going to government relocation camps, and this whole area was going to be turned into a Free Fire Zone. That meant that ANYBODY remaining in the area was to be considered VC, and shame on them. This sucked! These people had lived on and worked this country for generations. It was a lousey job, and most of us hated it. You can't imagine the look of sadness and hate in these people's eyes. I left VN the end of JUN67 and Malheur II continued to the end JUL67, when it turned into another operation running Search and Destroy patrols through the area and still doing evacuations of villages.

The whole time that I was involved in this I never saw, or heard one whisper of any atrocities being commited. I have a good friend who came to the 101st in APR67 and was assigned to 1/327. He stayed with them for 6mos. until he volunteered for LRRPs. He and I revisited VN together last year. We've talked about this at legnth since these allegations have surfaced. He also deems them bogus, and it was his unit. He never heard anything about this. If something like this was going on on the scale reported ["killed hundreds"], it would have leaked out into the Rumor Mills. If you don't believe this, you weren't in the military. It might have been kept from the higher echelon, but NEVER the troops.

I can only speculate on the reasons these "Soldiers" would confess to a reporter about doing these things so many years later. Maybe just telling BS war stories to a young reporter who didn't know any different. Maybe for their own agenda; maybe they're writing a book; maybe they're trying to enhance a PTSD claim with the VA. I don't know. What I do know is that the Pentagon hasn't found any concrete evidence of this occurring to pursue it, and that there weren't any MAJOR newspapers here that chose to pickup the story. You can form your own opinion.


KERRY- I'm not going to go into depth on the Winter Soldier Testimonies that he was involved in. What I will say, is that many/most or all? of the people that testified were later proven to never have been at the places that they claimed to have been, or were so far in the rear, they could never have witnessed the things they testified to. I think the fact that they were even in VN was questioned for some of them. As a Democrat who's still on the fence about Kerry, I find all this quite disturbing. His rumored close association with [Hanoi] Jane Fonda isn't helping him with alot of VN Vets, either.

[Bill Farnie]

My Lai was a terrible thing to have happened and the people responsible were punished but in a certain way I can understand the mental state of the troops involved. They had been in contact every day for a week and were taking casualties every day and that kind of stress can make rational men do irrational things. I DO NOT condone in any way what happened at My Lai but let me tell a story and I'll try to keep it short.


During Tet 1969 my company was sent back to Camp Evans to help beef up the security of the base just in case, the U.S. didn’t want to get caught with their pants down like Tet 68’. Any First Teamer's and 101st guys who were at Evans know the village of Phong Dien was pretty much right outside the gate. One night our company had to provide a squad for an ambush and four men for an LP.
The men of the LP were walking a rice paddy dike of the village and were ambushed killing three of them and wounding the other. We were pissed and wanted revenge. My company and Bravo Company cordoned off the village and a no lights after dark curfew was imposed. My platoon had a Starlight Scope and when dawn came both companys moved out tightening the cordon as we approached the village. Someone noticed the Starlight Scope was missing and a couple of guys went back to where we had setup the night before but it wasn't anywhere to be found.
We started to search the hooch's of the ville and as I came up on this one hooch a young boy ran out with something wrapped in a newspaper under his arm. The FRAME OF MIND I WAS IN told me that he was trying to hide something and that it was the scope.
I yelled Dung Lai! Dung Lai! (STOP!!! in Vietnamese ) but he kept on running. I drew a bead on him with my M-16 and at the last second took my aim off of him and fired a burst in front of him and he stopped running and sat on the ground. When I reached him I saw that he had a fish wrapped up in the newspaper and he was afraid that we were going to take it from his family and that's the reason for him taking off. If I hadn't fired in front of him and did bring him down would I be considered a baby/child killer? Would I have committed murder?

My unit did “tag” dead enemy soldiers with a Red Ace of Spades, with the color red signifying the 1st Battalion 506th Abn. Inf., 101st Airborne Division but we only put it on combatants and never on a civilian and not all the time. We used the cards mostly on bodies after an ambush to let the enemy know we were about and that we can use his tactics against him. When my unit moved up to the northern part of South Vietnam and started our move towards the A Shau Valley, we hardly ever encountered a village of civilians so we knew if we came upon a Vietnamese in the bush that he wasn’t a civilian.

I have no respect for Kerry and that’s all I have to say on that subject and anything related to what he has said in the past and now as he is campaigning. Same goes for Stone.

An Arclight mission was a B-52 strike. I did witness one and although we were well out of the missions zone the ground shook and the sound of the 2000 Lb. bombs exploding was very loud. It’s funny but we heard the B-52’s in the distance going away from us well before the bombs hit.

Bill

[Zofo]

After reading the above posts, esp. concerning the Tiger Force, I am at a loss to understand why then, if people such as you say that you never heard of it, it persists (or persisted) to continue in the press. Is this just another example of people trying to bad mouth the veterans of that war?
I'm afraid US politics generally pass me by but Kerry seemed to be winning lots of primaries so I did a little research on him. There is a photo of him pretty much next to Hanoi Jane and she admits knowing him on some anti-war march. I'll post the pic on "Villains" section.

Bill, your honesty in these matters is very much appreciated. I cannot imagine how you'd feel if that rifle had not moved. As for the cards, psychological warfare I suppose?

In the later stretches of the war, presumably by the time you'd finished, were the Chinese involved? Also special operations, Air America in Laos and Cambodia? Could the US have borne the brunt of public opinion by making it part of the war itself?

[Frisco-Kid]

I forgot to comment on the cards. I, too, was issued these cards sometimes. Ours were all Ace of Spades with the Screaming Eagle on the back. We would scatter them around enemy dead. The Ace of Spades was supposed to be some kind of unlucky sign to the Vietnamese. It was more of a calling card letting them know who was kicking around in their backyard, kicking their asses. Psych Ops. They did it to us, too. Would sometimes find little black flags, about 2"X3", on little sticks left by Charlie on our perimeter. Just letting us know how close he can get to us. One time we found some Chieu Hoi leaflets left on the perimeter. The Chieu Hoi [open arms] program was to entice VC/NVA soldiers to defect in safety. Just bring in your weapon and a flyer. Even Charlie had a sense of humor :lol: .

I, too, have seen Arclight missions and they're awesome to behold. Almost made you feel sorry for Charlie, sometimes. Almost.

The Tiger Force story was put out on the news wires, giving many papers around the world the option to pick it up if they wanted it. I'm sure the subject matter was VERY tempting to some of them. I just found it interesting that it wasn't picked up by the WASHINGTON POST, the NEW YORK TIMES, the SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER, and many of the other larger newspapers in the country. I can/will only comment on what I know on this subject.

Bill, my friend, DON'T MEAN NOTHIN', Bro.

[Bill Farnie]

Zofo,

If the picture of Kerry and Fonda is the one where they are both standing together in front of a podium , that pic has been shown to be a fake but they did attend some of the same rallies.

I don't know if I could have lived with myself if I had killed that boy and then found out all he had was a fish. On the other hand If he was trying to kill me I would have dropped him boy or no boy.

We killed troops that were either Chinese or North Korean for their stature was much to large to be Vietnamese and this was in 1968.

During the battle for Hamburger Hill my company was in Laos, patrolling the border area along the ridgeline that led to Dong Ap Bai to stop the NVA from sending reinforcements into the fray, although we were not supposed to be in Laos and after the battle when we RIF'ed back to FSB Currahee looking for any remnants of the enemy units involved in the fight, we stayed pretty much on the Laotian side of the border until we got close to the firebase.

I only met some special ops troops in the bush once during my whole tour. My company was at Currahee and my platoon was the RRF and we were put on alert to go out and help a team of Special Forces who had gotten themselves surrounded by the NVA. We didn't have to go for they were brought out of the jungle with penetrators and they were lifted to Currahee by two Hueys with four men dangling underneath each chopper. I had a chance to talk to a couple of them for a short time but they wouldn't tell me what their mission was.

Tom, I hear ya Lima Charlie "don't mean nothin' "

Bill

[Zofo]

Again Bill, Tom, voices of reason - much respect chaps - especially about the cards again. The documentary I saw (ages ago now) featured these damned things quite highly and obviously made them into something that they were not.
Bill, I've seen the pic you refer to and have taken a shot that is authenticated (both by Kerry and H.J.)
I was impressed to read about the signs on the perimeter - that must have been quite frightening or maybe a wake up call if they could get in really close without being spotted. I think the film "Hamburger Hill" featured something along those lines with a VC and an RPG7?
This of course brings me onto the film "Hamburger Hill". Apart from being quite unlike the ususal run of the mill type movies I thought it brought a lot of events to life; the savagery of battle, the guys who were due to ship out and wanted (not suprisingly) an easy last few days/weeks and the contempt of the fighting man towards the press.
Was this battle represented correctly? Did the press get in the way constantly (the first war to be blanket covered) and does it hold out as a piece of historical accuracy. We can only judge by what is presented to us if we have no other form of information!
Another book (published prob early '70's) dealt with the experiences of a section of ex Waffen SS fighting in French Indochina with the French Foreign Legion (possibly some truth to it but a lot of propaganda involved) and the writer was very scathing of US special ops (written after the fact of course). He refers to "club footed marines" and misplaced skills amongst other things. Now he was just trying to prove that the Waffen SS were skilled troops but even though you both may have only come across SF in passing, in your opinion with hindsight, where they worth the effort and did they earn their pay? Once again, I'm not trying to put people down but clarify the situation in my own mind. Again, thank you for taking the time to reply to the 1000's of questions I've asked.

[Bill Farnie]

Zofo,

I cannot comment on the battle for Hamburger Hill for my company was not directly involved in the assaults to take the hill. When the battalion commander of the 3/187th realized that his battalion could not take the hill on it's own he asked the brigade commander for my battalion, 1/506th to come to his aid. While Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and the HQ company of the 1st Bn 506th went to help the 3/187th my company made a combat assault to the last ridgeline of the Dong Ap Bai mountains where we setup and patrolled the border between Vietnam and Laos to try and stop the NVA from sending in reinforcements. My company was involved in some heavy fighting for the NVA was indeed trying to send in troops from Laos and then after Hamburger Hill was taken on the 20th of May, Bravo Company 1/506th came and helped us out by setting up in the draw between hills 900 and 911 because at that point the NVA was trying to flee back into Laos. Bravo company fought a hand to hand engagement with the NVA during that time. I did see the movie and I really don't know how accurate it is but I do remember one scene where it showed the 3/187th being trucked into the A Shau.That never happened. On May 10th they combat assaulted into the valley along with the 506th.

I know the press was with the troops during the battle and my family saved some newspaper clippings and for the most part they were favorable to the 101st until Senator Kennedy got involved.

Having not worked with SF troops I can't say how they were. I do know that they were involved in many different operations including working with the CIA kidnapping and assassinating high ranking NVA and Viet Cong in both South and North Vietnam.

Bill

[Frisco-Kid]

CARDS- Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to try to tell you that we were all angels. I saw guys put these in the mouths and hands of the dead. I also saw guys pose bodies for pictures. Have them hold cans of C-rats, put their arms around each other, etc.. Keep in mind, most of us were 18-19-20yr. olds. and it's easy [normal] to develope a sense of black humor in these, sometimes bizarre, conditions. I personally didn't mess with the dead. Thought it was unlucky. A superstitious Irishman.

SF- I didn't have much contact with these guys, either. We were involved in pulling their bacon out of the fire a couple of times when they were in danger of being over-run. Their basecamps were usually set up in some pretty remote areas. They were usually pretty small and manned mostly by what ever civilians or ARVN unit they happened to be working with. Heard of a couple of the camps being wiped out. I'm sure they more than earned their pay.

[Derrick Stephenson]

Guys,
I've been following your posts, and as a total non military person, never having even held a gun, I find it difficult to even imagine what you, my Dad, and others, describe.
I feel pride, sympathy, outrage, disgust, and disbelief all mixed together.
Damn all politicians, religious maniacs, and gung-ho military leaders who force decent people to go through such horror.
WILL THEY NEVER LEARN!!!
Derrick.

[Zofo]

No one will ever learn - there is too much power and influence to be had. I cannot speak for the vets here but I joined up not so much to shoot at people but to earn the Queen's Shilling and see places.
The other side to soldiering is that stuff does kick off and it's time to earn the pay. Plenty of people did N.I. (I had several friends either shot dead or wounded there) and the other theatres. Some see it as the culmination of military training and some just don't want to go. There is a good old phrase that says "You shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke" - flippant perhaps but the British Forces survive on their humour. When Op. Iraqi Freedom started, there were plenty of people in the press here in Spain (local English papers) who immediately kicked off and said the soldiers knew what they were getting into when they joined so there should be no sympathy for them if they were hurt or killed. The soldier of course already knows what he/she is doing and would quite likely be first in the queue to bayonet the lady that came out with this crass statement. I fired off a very strong (but polite) letter which of course was not printed.
At the end of the day "war is politics via other means" and politicians we know live for their own rhetoric. Damn them all and all who sail in them for sure but the world will never be cured from people like this. Derrick, I only wish we could get rid of them all.

[Frisco-Kid]

From mid-JUL66 to the end of NOV66 the whole 1st Bde. of the 101st operated around Tuy Hoa in Phu-Yen Province. In general, our mission was to secure Vung Ro Bay on the coast, and the highway north out of Tuy Hoa, and to protect the rice crop of the whole province from the VC. A tall order, considering practically the whole place was VC controlled. Most of the villages were active in supporting the VC or, at least, sympathized with them.

During our time there, we had a Korean battalion working in conjunction with us. The Koreans had a well-deserved reputation as fearless fighters with a streak of cruelty in them. I'm sure they were more than willing to come to VN, when invited to come kill communists. We often heard stories of their give-no-quarter approach to fighting. Once came to a village that was in their AO, and saw 3 heads stuck on poles at the entrance to the ville. A not-so-subtle message to Charlie.

I've already stated that I never heard anything about the alleged Tiger Force atrocities in the rumor mills, but here's one I did hear. And for quite awhile. The VC command-detonated a 155mm artillery shell, killing some of the Korean high ranking officers, including the battalion commander. They went in, cordoned off and secured the whole area, and wouldn't let anyone in or out. They then proceeded to kill every animal and human near the small village where this occurred. I guess there wasn't so much as a chicken left alive when they were done.

We picked up bits and pieces of the story for awhile from senior NCOs and officers and I have no reason to doubt too much of it, given what I already knew about the Koreans. I remained in VN for a long time after this incident, and never heard anything about any repercussions from this incident. I don't know when the Koreans pulled out of VN, but I know they fought there for a few more years after this incident. I have a good friend that was attached to them in 69/70.

[Zofo]

I didn't know that Koreans had served with US forces in this conflict. Apart from them did you encounter other troops? I know the Australians were active in Vietnam but were there others?
If this Koeran incident had happened, do you think that this was skilful covering up or just ignored by the media as not being comitted by Americans?

[Frisco-Kid]

ZOFO

Not alot of people, including here in the States, knew that we had allies from other countries. Because we carried the lion's share of the burden, both in manpower and finances, they didn't get much press. For the most part, their numbers were small. The Aussies were probably the next biggest force there. Along with them, there might have been some Kiwis [New Zealanders], also. Besides the Koreans, there were also Thais and Filipinos. Notice they are all countries that would have a major interest in seeing that the spread of Communism didn't leave VN's borders [The Domino Theory].

As far as the Koreans, I don't think they had any American or foreign journalists dogging them like we did. They might have had some Korean journalists reporting back to the Home Front, but I'll bet this pay-back would have been applauded there. I think MACV didn't want to confront such a strong ally of the U.S. over this. Since Americans weren't involved, I think they just looked the other way. Just my opinion.

[Zofo]

Reading your latest regarding Korean actions, I would have to agree with your opinion of not being dogged or upsetting the balance.
Were the Us forces fighting opposite to allies or were there strict demarcation zones. or was it a case of cross the line and get shot by the Koreans/Phillpinos etc?

[Frisco-Kid]

ZOFO

I'm not sure how they designated AOs to the allies. I know I never saw them in the Central Highlands, except for ARVNs, of course. I'm not sure if they were all combat arms units, either. I know the Aussies and Koreans were. I'm not sure about the Thais and Filipinos. I don't recall ever hearing about any of their combat experiences or casualties. I'm also not sure if the Aussies and Koreans always worked in conjunction with U.S. units, or also had their own operations in their own AOs. Might be an interesting GOOGLE search for info about our allies.

I always wondered something. This was the only prolonged jungle warfare war to come along after WWII. I know the Aussies kept their skills honed in this type of warfare and, I believe, took part in some skirmishes in Indonesia. I'm sure the British trained with them from time to time in Australia. I was wondering if any Brits ever snuck into VN to get some on-the-job-training with the Aussies. I'm sure this would have been a HUGE international incident if this ever occurred and was discovered. What do you think, guys? Ever have an NCO or officer brag about the month he spent with the Aussies in Nam?

[Zofo]

I myself have nevr heard of any Brits going into Vietnam - it's conceivable that there were some but no hard info on that. The only people I can think of in that neck of the woods would be the MI6 gang. Not exactly military but up to no good I'll be bound!
One of my troop 2 i/c's was an Aussie who trained with Australian SAS types who'd served in Vietnam. They did jungle training in Australia and he said it was the hardest test he'd ever done. My 2 i/c was on Op. Long Look, an exchange programme between the UK and British armies.

[Frisco-Kid]

A beautiful tribute

and a quick glimpse into our lives.


http://www.palletmastersworkshop.com/namflash.html

There's sound if you have it.

[Bombardier]

A very very moving film, thanks Frisco. sal; pow;

[rotorwash]

Let me throw some light on the Korean Army in Vietnam. My unit worked with both the Korean White Horse Division based at Ninh Hoa and the Tiger Division based at Qui Nhon. The White Horse had regiments from just north of Phan Rang to just south of Tuy Hoa and the Capital had regiments from south of Qui Nhon to Phu Cat. The Tiger story may relate to the division commander of the Tiger division who let it be known that he wanted no VC firing mortars, or villagers hiding VC in his AO. Word has it that his troops found VC hiding in a village, end of story. Not even a cat was left alive. We were working out of Lane Army Airfield north of Qui Nhon and we didn't even have sandbags around our hooches. First night I was there some idiot on guard duty fired an M-79 into the perimeter. Panic ensued, the only protection I could find was my mattress (yes we had steel bunks). The revetments for our aircraft had 55 gallon drums filled with sand on one side of the revetment only, the side away from the perimeter. We rarely ever got shot at in a Korean AO. Retribution was swift and merciless, the Oriental mind could grasp that.

We worked with 3 ARVN divisions, 22cnd around Nha Trang, the 2cnd at Quang Ngai and the 1st at Hue. The 22 was a little above average, the 2cnd was probably the worst unit that existed and the 1st was the equal of any American unit. In his excellant book, "The Siege At Hue" George W. Smith (Army officer) gives an analysis of the 1st Arvn and the Marines during the battle.

Hope this answers some questions.

RW

[Bill Farnie]

and the 1st was the equal of any American unit.

Yep, the 1st ARVN were good troops and had our respect.
The 1st Regiment and three batallions of the 3rd CA'ed with us into the A Shau on 10 May 69'

[Paul]

Very interesting and gripping reading guys, lots of things I didn't know about before. I do now.

[exlrrp]

Wow, Ive read this all from the start and you guys are good!!!
There's a lot to discuss here, I can only hit what comes to me first.
Re: Tiger Force. I have just been in contact with a friend of mine who was in the Tiger Force and was called as a witness in the investigations. There is not doubt that at least 2 teams of Tigers did commit are indisputably war crimes--the killing of civilans.
You have to judge it by the context. The Malheur operations were civilan removal to refugee camps (among other things) and then the area was declared a free fire zone. We were told that anyone staying behind was enemy.
You also have to understand the trmendous stress these people were in (thats military AND civilians) !01st field time was weeke after endless wek of patrolling, constant stress, exhaustion. This can unhinge people and its easy to see some going postal--its only strange that more didn't. War is barely controlled madness and rage, it can slop over easy.
There's no doubt that over a hundred people, maybe twice or more were killed, not in large amounts, usually in small groups.
My friend was called about an incident he participated in where they observed a bomb and mine factory for a day, then wiped it out. All well and good but these were children doing it. Ida done the same thing, which might give you a clue as to how hardened you get. Thats the kind of war it was.
Certainly if we took fire from a village, we wiped it out with air or arty (if we had the time) Think all the people in those villes were culpable VC?? I hope youre right.
have to go now, later
James

[DMZ-LT]

I guess I was lucky. The vast majority of the time I operated along the DMZ and there were no civilians around. It was a free fire zone , just us and the NVA playing. I expected the people in villages to welcome us as liberators , to greet us like the Frence towns that were liberated in WWII , instead we got looks of hate. Once going to the aid of another platoon in contact I had to go through a small ville around Dong Ha. We were hell bent to help our friends and raced through the ville. The lead track ran over an old man in the ville and the following tracks ran over him to. We didn't stop and I never even called the incident in to higher

[Zofo]

Going back to the top of the page, I was reading an open forum in http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/rum.htm about British involvement in Vietnam. The overriding opinion is that there were British who did fight albeit in the ranks of the Australian army. They left Britain and went to Aus, signed up and got posted out.
There is a lot of supposition that there were Brit SF there as advisors and observers, mainly with US SF teams but no real eyewitness accounts.
Many merchant seamen have said they "served" as they were on vessels chartered by the US govt. to bring in fuel etc.
I think that politically speaking, the British PM (Harold Wilson) did not feel that the Brits should be involved (we had various other crises about at the time) and overall in a global picture, there was no imperative political necessity to go.
Did any of our vets serve with the Australians or notice any other "European" troops in country?

[Bombardier]

Good question Zofo :cool:

[rotorwash]

In the June 2004 issue of Vietnam Magazine is the story of Aussie WO2 Kieth Windbank who served with the Australian Army Training Team Vietnam (AATTV) as an advisor alongside U.S. SF at SF Camp A-107 located at Tra Bong in Quang Ngai Province. This was my old stomping ground but he was there before I was. He later moved up to join the Mike Force at Da Nang.

Rotor

[Zofo]

Searching through the web this evening I came across this snippet of information:

The Irish Who Fought and Died In Vietnam
...I thought it important to remember those Irish lads - The Lost Platoon - who died while serving in Vietnam under another country's flag. Never forget.

Sgt Patrick Nevin (Army / b.Mayo / KIA 2-23-66)
L/Cpl Paul Maher (Marine Corps / Dublin / KIA 3-5-66)
SP4 Timothy Daly (Army / Limerick / KIA 2-3-67)
L/Cpl Bernard Freyne (Marine Corps / Roscommon / KIA 3-10-67)
SP4 Michael Smith (Army / Cavan / KIA 3-18-67)
Cpl Patrick Gallagher (Marine Corps / Mayo / KIA 3-30-67)
Sgt First Class Edward Howell (Army / Dublin / KIA 4-17-67)
PFC Maurice O’Callaghan (Marine Corps / Dublin / KIA 4-21-67)
PFC John Collopy (Army / Limerick / KIA 7-15-67)
SP4 Edward Scully (Army / Cork / KIA 11-13-67)
Capt. Edmond Landers (Army / Tipperary / KIA 5-15-68)
1/Lt Anthony O’Reilly (Army / Galway / KIA 6-3-68)
Cpl Philip Bancroft (Marine Corps / Belfast / KIA 9-30-68)
Cpl Sean Doran (Army / Dublin / KIA 3-28-69)
L/Cpl Peter Nee (Marine Corps / Connemara / KIA 3-31-69)
1/Lt John Driver (Army / Dublin / KIA 4-17-69)


And the Irish KIAs in Australian uniform.

George Nagle (9 RAR / b.Tipperary / KIA 1-6-69)
David Doyle (3 Cav / b.Dublin / KIA 7-31-70)
Robert Fleming (1 Aust Reinf Reg / b.Belfast / KIA 11-9-70)
Thomas Birnie (2 RAR / b.Belfast / KIA 3-25-71)

Something that I had never thought about - or indeed knew about. Food for thought and respectful memories!

[rotorwash]

The Australian Army Training Team Vietnam (AATTV) has an excellant website. I just did a search on AATTV and found it.

RW

[Frisco-Kid]

Zofo

I thought as much about some Brits sneaking into Nam with the Aussies. That's why I asked the question. I would guess it would be too tempting of a training opportunity.

I don't remember operating with the Aussies. They seemed to be mostly in III Corps between Vung Tau and Phan Thiet as I recall. While with the 101st we did operate in III Corps for about 6wks. around Phan Thiet and Song Mao, but most of my time was in II Corps until we moved into Duc Pho [southern I Corps] near the end of my tour. I never ran across any European troops that I was aware of.

The Irish serving in American military units is neither new, nor a surprise to Americans. They have been in virtually every one of our conflicts since the American Revolution, often with distinction. During my 3yrs. of service I served with an Irishman, a Scot, and 2 Canadians. The Irishman and I were pretty good buds, serving together in the 101st. He lived in Baltimore, but was originally from Armagh. He was severely wounded [shot in the face] near Tuy Hoa. I never saw him again after he was med-evaced. He's not on The Wall, so he survived.

[Zofo]

Frisco, thanks for that!
Until there is a little more openess within some of our SF people, we will never know just how many managed get in and "have a go". One of the longest serving members of the SAS was vague enough in his book to "think that some of the SAS" went in as observers and advisors - those with experience in Malaya & Korea probably.

The Irish side of things to me at any rate is probably a case of the closer to home the less obvious it is. I certainly don't mean to cast any disrespect to the Irish servicemen but I have a feeling (in this case over Vietnam) that the soldiers emmigrated and took new nationality - which is pretty much what the authenticated Brits serving with the Aussies did. Being the nation that offers refuge to the poor and the tired, with the mass emmigration to the US since people started doing that then it should not be surprising that the Irish served with distinction. That is my idea or reading of the situation. These Irish soldiers were US citizens I presume?

[DMZ-LT]

Maybe not Zofo. I had two guys in my platoon in Viet Nam who were Mexican citizens. They had come over to the states , legally , to work here. They were drafted. They became citizens when they were discharged from the Army.

[Frisco-Kid]

Like Lt. said, "Maybe not". Alot of the foreigners that joined the U.S. military did so to get their citizenship sooner. I think it was automatically given at the end of their enlistment. I'd guess though, that this wasn't the case for all of them. More Canadians came down to join our military during Vietnam, than draft dodgers from here went to Canada to avoid it. We came out WAAYYY ahead on that trade. As I recall, the 2 that I served with had every intention of returning to Canada. I think in every nationality there are men that just feel the need to show up for a war. If it's someone else's, so be it.

When I was in AIT one of my best friends was a black guy named Murphy. When I first met him I told him, "You don't look like an Irishman". He responded, "You've obviously never met a SMOKED Irishman :mrgreen: ". I told him that my Da's mother was a Murphy from Dublin and maybe we're related :lol: . After that, he always called me his "Cousin".

[Zofo]

Off topic totally but the most well known black Irishman I can think of is Phillip Lynott, late of Thin Lizzy fame!
How did these people eg Canadians join up then? Just come across the border and sign on? Didn't you need to show documents or anything or did the US Army need people so much that they were just sworn in? Of course (I suppose) this couldn't happen now but would this have been the way it was done?

[Frisco-Kid]

Thin Lizzy: "The Boys Are Back In Town" sing; - Great Song!

Zofo, back then the U.S./Canadian border was very fluid. Both sides pretty much came and went with nothing more than a driver's license for ID. It was pretty much that way right up until 9-11. During the VN War the Canadians started to tighten up on their side, trying to deter draft dodgers. To my knowledge, the U.S. never did. They had no reason to. The U.S./Canadian border has long been called The Longest Friendly Border In The World.

I'm not sure how it worked for a Canadian to join. I imagine the same as any other foreign-born resident who wasn't a citizen yet. It would be simple for a Canadian to apply for an extended stay, and get it, establish an address, and go talk to the recruiter of his choice. Hope some of this helped answer your question.

PS: Pvt. Murphy wasn't really of Irish descent; only his surname was. Most/all black family names of European origin dates back to the days of slavery. When they were freed from slavery by the Emancipation Act they took on the surnames of there previous owners.

[Frisco-Kid]

Thin Lizzy: "The Boys Are Back In Town" sing; - Great Song!

Zofo, back then the U.S./Canadian border was very fluid. Both sides pretty much came and went with nothing more than a driver's license for ID. It was pretty much that way right up until 9-11. During the VN War the Canadians started to tighten up on their side, trying to deter draft dodgers. To my knowledge, the U.S. never did. They had no reason to. The U.S./Canadian border has long been called The Longest Friendly Border In The World.

I'm not sure how it worked for a Canadian to join. I imagine the same as any other foreign-born resident who wasn't a citizen yet. It would be simple for a Canadian to apply for an extended stay, and get it, establish an address, and go talk to the recruiter of his choice. Hope some of this helped answer your question.

PS: Pvt. Murphy wasn't really of Irish descent; only his surname was. Most/all black family names of European origin dates back to the days of slavery. When they were freed from slavery by the Emancipation Act they took on the surnames of there previous owners.

[Zofo]

I see. fascinating stuff, esp. about the origins of your "Murphy". I know that similar name adoptions occurred with us as well, but more in India where the locals took on English (and English sounding) surnames - Jacob being very popular. Some folk took women's names (Ladies who ran guest houses in Indai during the empire days). When the lady retired, her servant took the house and the name but instead of being called Mrs. he called himself Miss and made good money on the connection of the name itself.

[Zofo]

I see. fascinating stuff, esp. about the origins of your "Murphy". I know that similar name adoptions occurred with us as well, but more in India where the locals took on English (and English sounding) surnames - Jacob being very popular. Some folk took women's names (Ladies who ran guest houses in Indai during the empire days). When the lady retired, her servant took the house and the name but instead of being called Mrs. he called himself Miss and made good money on the connection of the name itself.

[Frisco-Kid]

Some interesting stats:



Largest per-capita Loss
Beallsville, Ohio (pop. 475) gained unwanted national notoriety between 1966 and 1971 by having suffered the largest per-capita loss of life in the Vietnam War. Six young men lost their lives in the war, a terrible and profound loss for this small town.

Highest State Casualties
During Vietnam, West Virginia had the highest casualty rate in the nation, according to the U.S. Department of Defense. The state had 711 casualties -- 39.9 deaths per 100,000 people. Oklahoma had the second-highest casualty rate.

Names on the Wall
The youngest Vietnam KIA is believed to be Dan Bullock USMC, at 15 years old.
At least five men killed in Vietnam were 16 years old.
At least twelve men killed in Vietnam were 17 years old.
The oldest man killed was 62 years old.
Approx 11,500 KIAs were less than 20 years old.
Veterans killed on their first day in Vietnam 997
Veterans killed on their last day in Vietnam 1,448
Number of Chaplains on the Wall … 16 (2 Medal Of Honor)
Number of Women on the Wall … 8 (7 Army, 1 USAF - 7,484 served)

SGT Robert Davison of Muskegon, Michigan joined the Marines at age 14 and died in Vietnam December 17th, 1966 at age 18.

BUDDIES:
Steven E. Amescua and Anthony J. Blevins joined the Marine Corp on the buddy plan. Steven was KIA May 15, 1968 and Anthony was KIA August 23, 1968.

BROTHERS:
Brothers Charles L. Tank and Philip L. Tank of Ecorse, Michigan were both killed in Vietnam. Charles on April 19, 1969 Philip on September 12, 1968.

Brothers Kenneth F. Olenzuk and Paul G. Olenzuk were both killed in Vietnam. Kenneth on December 25, 1967 and Paul on August 10, 1968

Brothers Marlin Chris Eversgerd and Norman Lee Eversgerd were both killed in Vietnam. Marlin on March 19, 1967 and Norman on August 18, 1968

Brothers Gabriel Trujillo and Paul Trujillo were both killed in Vietnam. Gabriel on February 15, 1971 and Paul on November 04, 1971

FATHER AND SON:
Richard B. Fitzgibbon Jr. was killed June 08, 1956 his son Richard B. Fitzgibbon III was KIA September 07, 1965.

Leo Hester Sr. Died March 10, 1967 in a aircraft crash his son Leo Hester Jr. was KIA November 02, 1969 also in a aircraft crash.

Number of living whose names are etched on the “wall” in error? TWELVE!


Names Added to Memorial
Since 1997 67 names of veterans who have died due to their wounds received during the Vietnam war have been added to the Wall. The latest names added are listed below.
Added 2001
Army SGT. Wayne E. Benge
Navy LT.Edward P. Cooper
Army LT. Thomas C. Finn
Army SP4 Benjamin R. Montano
Army PVT. Chester R. Odom III
Army SP5 Class Billy M. Smith

Added 2002
Army PFC William E. Johnson
Army SGT Richard E. Toney
Army PFC Paul P. Zylko

Added 2003
Army PFC William J. Scannell
Army SP4 James Rogers
Army SFC Dwaine Usry McGriff
Air Force SGT Donald Scott Carson
Army PFC Kevin John Joyce
Army SGT Frank L. Huddleston

Added 2004
Marine Corps Corporal William Floyd Bronson, Jr.
Air Force Captain Edward Alan Brudno
Army Sergeant Larry Dennis Callaghan
Army Sergeant William Edward Humphrey
Army SP4 Robert Bruce Hunter
Army PFC David Michael Johnson
Navy PO2 Patrick Augustine McKenna
Army PFC James Rae Sabourin
Army SP4 Carl Dennis Wadleigh
Navy AO1 Joe Lee Williams

[rotorwash]

We have a guy from our unit who was terribly wounded in a mortar attack but didn't die until 96 that we are trying to get entered on the wall. Gary Marckle.

[Frisco-Kid]

Stay on it RW. He deserves to be remembered sal; .

[Frisco-Kid]

CANUCKS


Canadians have served in the American military since the Civil War. Over the years 40 of them have received Congressional Medals Of Honor, including Sp/4 Peter C. Lemon of Norwich, Ontario, for his actions while serving in a recon company in the 1st Cav in VN. Conversely, 35,000 Americans served in the Canadian military between 1914-17 before the U.S. entered WWI; and 30,000 between 1939-41 before the U.S. entered WWII.

It's hard to pin down how many served during VN. There's estimates from 3500-12,000. Some sources say it may have been as many as 30-40,000! The difficulty lies in the fact that the many that joined or were drafted while living here were recorded as Americans. There are 100 confirmed Canadian KIA and 6 MIA on The Wall. It's estimated that between 30-40,000 COWARDS fled from here to Canada. What ever the number of BRAVE Canadians that served by our sides, we came out WAAYYY ahead on this trade. I personally served with 2 Canadians, an Irishman, and a Scot.

[Frisco-Kid]

Written by James Webb
Parade Contributing Editor James Webb was a Marine infantry officer in Vietnam and later served as Secretary of the Navy.


My office looks out on Arlington National Cemetery. Finishing a jog or restless with my writing, I often stroll its rolling hills and think of those who served our country during troubled times, now gathered in their final formations. Frequently, I find myself in one small corner of the cemetery where my father is buried, not far from a heroic squad leader who died under my command in Vietnam.

It was there, 10 years ago, that I first noticed Troy Liverman. He was on his knees, tending a grave that, unlike the others, was surrounded by a carefully trimmed shrub. His nearby car had a Marine Corps bumper sticker and Purple Heart license plates inscribed "45 & 68". I assumed he was a retired career solder who had been wounded in World War II and Vietnam, perhaps visiting the grave of a departed wife. But on my next visit, I went to the grave and saw that it belonged instead to his son. Marine Lance Cpl. John C. Liverman, 19, had been killed in Vietnam on December 11, 1968. I also noticed, with some amazement, that I had been wounded on what would have been his 20th birthday - July 10, 1969.

I would see Troy Liverman several times a year after that, on his knees before his son's headstone. The shrub remained neatly trimmed. Throughout the year, pots of yellow and white chrysanthemums were left in front of the marker. In December there would be a Christmas blanket, an elaborate tapestry of leaves and flowers. Over time I was taken by the power of these simple expressions of love, for in his visits I could see clearly the terrible burden borne by families that share a tradition of military service.

Johnny's grave became a landmark for me. Walking past it, I would remember the only time I saw my career-military father cry, when "Danny Boy" came on the radio as I prepared to ship out for Vietnam. Seeing Troy Liverman kneeling in the grass, I would think of my own son, growing up with a citizen-soldier legacy reaching back to the Revolutionary War, who already had told me he wanted to be a Marine. Embodied in Liverman's tragedy and its remembrance was the haunting tightrope so many American families walk every day: We teach our children that there is honor in serving our country, yet we live in dread of the price they may be called upon to pay.

It took me a long time to approach Troy Liverman, but once we met, it was only minutes before I began to think of him as a friend. He is a gruff, no-nonsense man who, at 74 bears the scars of a cancer operation and a hip replacement and still carries a knob of shrapnel in one leg from World War II. He gives his opinions bluntly yet sees humor in unexpected places.

Liverman grew up in Washington, D.C., where his father had moved from North Carolina to drive a cab. He became a soldier at 17 and in the final months of World War II was seriously wounded by a German mortar shell. Married at 20, a father at 22, he worked as a meter-reader for the Washington Gas Light Co., bought a house in the Maryland suburbs and raised three sons who became the focal point of his existence. The boys went to parochial school, played sports and listened to their father's homilies. On special days such as Easter and Christmas, there were cards and adoring notes to their dad. Troy Liverman still keeps them.

"There's no way to describe the feeling that I have for my sons," Liverman says today. "I don't know what I did to deserve this kind of love."

Like their father, when their time came, all three sons volunteered for the military. The eldest, Robert, now a corporate executive in Texas, was wounded in Vietnam in 1968 as an Army lieutenant, calling artillery onto his own position to stop an enemy attack. The youngest, James, who died five years ago of a liver ailment, served in the Marines after High School. But the middle son, Johnny, had it the hardest.

A shadowbox on a wall in Troy Liverman's rural Virginia home binds him and his sons together -- four men, three bronze Stars, six Purple Hearts. A professionally bound scrapbook recounts Johnny's life, from childhood report cards to his final days in Vietnam. Looking at his photos and notes, one meets a tough but loving kid with James Dean looks and a strong sense of family loyalty. He had lost cartilage in both knees to football, which could have excused him from the draft. Instead, he volunteered for the Marines. A picture in the scrapbook shows a smiling Johnny just after he enlisted in the summer of '67, holding a sign that reads "BEFORE."

There would be no "AFTER."

Johnny reached Vietnam in January 1968, just in time for the Tet Offensive, the worst fighting of the war. He was 18. His childhood friend and next-door neighbor, "Trippy" Streeks, had just been killed during the siege of Khe Sanh. Johnny reported to the famed "Walking Dead" -- First Battalion, Ninth Marines -- and was immediately thrown into heavy combat. In early March he was wounded in the shoulder by shrapnel. In late April he was hit again by shrapnel and suffered a serious gunshot would to his thigh. "The fighting was so fierce that they couldn't get him out for two days," Troy Liverman remembers. "He almost bled to death."

His wounds entitled Johnny to go to Okinawa, where he could have remained for the rest of his tour. But he grew restless. Learning that a close friend from his old unit had been killed, he volunteered to return to combat. "Grandma told me for yours and Mom's sake don't go back to Nam," Johnny wrote to his father. "But like you always said, Dad, 'A job worth doing is a job worth doing right.' I'm getting straight with myself. I have to go back and finish the job."

Back in Vietnam, Johnny was assigned to the Second Battalion, Fourth Marines, in the rugged terrain near the demilitarized zone. On Dec. 11, 1968, his company fount an extended battle along infamous Foxtrot Ridge. Johnny was wounded for the third time early in the battle. As the fight wore on, a bullet hit him in the head.

Troy Liverman was managing the night shift at a McDonald's in Rockville, Md., when a Marine Corps officer came in. It was just before Christmas, and the Marines had been busy with their seasonal Toys for Tots program, so it was not unusual to see an officer in dress blues in the restaurant late at night. but when the young lieutenant asked for him by name, Liverman knew.

"You think you've had disappointments and troubles in your life," he says. "But they all add up to nothing when a man is telling you your son is dead."

Johnny was buried a few days after Christmas on a slope that looks out from Arlington toward the monuments on the other side of the Potomac River, a short walk from the Iwo Jima Memorial. Few graves surrounded his then, but over time the cemetery has filled. In the early days, Troy Liverman spent countless hours at his son's grave, working out his grief. Against cemetery rules, he brought in sprigs of shrubbery, planting them around the stone and tending them himself. "The caretakers didn't mind," he remembers today. "They all knew me. I spent more time in the cemetery than they did."

In the summer of 1969, anti-war protests were held at the Pentagon, only a mile from Johnny's grave. When Troy Liverman heard that protest leaders would be reading the names of Vietnam dead, he became incensed and staged a one-man counterdemonstration. "When they saw me, they huddled for a while. Then the leader of the demonstration came over and told me they wouldn't be bothering me." Liverman says. "I told him that was a wise decision."

On three different days, he stood in the heat across from the rallies, carrying a sign that termed the demonstrators "parasites." It made the papers, but his motivation was simple loyalty to his son. "They had a right to protest," he says, "But they had no right to use his name to undermine his cause. My son was not a victim. He died serving his country."

When it comes to Vietnam, the years have not particularly mellowed Troy Liverman. The Clinton era was especially difficult. If he had known that a man who avoided serving while criticizing those who answered the call in Vietnam would someday be elected President, he reflects, "I would have pushed my sons into the basement and locked the door." And yet, hearing him say it, one knows that he would never have done it. "One of the things I'm proudest of," he says, "is that all four of us were true volunteers."

The years go by. The old veteran moves more slowly now. The sprigs he planted more than 30 years ago have grown into a thick shrub that surrounds Johnny's headstone on three sides. An apple tree, once a sapling, overshadows the grave. but above all, Troy Liverman has remained firm in his devotion -- to his son and to his cause. And those of us who fought in the war that took Johnny's life cannot help but look at his father with an enormous sense of gratitude. What more could we have asked for, had we ourselves not survived?

Every time I pass Johnny Liverman's grave in my strolls through Arlington, I think of son and father, father and son. I am thankful I lived to bury a father who had entered his dotage, and I pray that when I am a very old man, my son may likewise bury me. But always in my heart I will honor Johnny and the others like him, who got straight with themselves, who disregarded shrapnel and gunshot wounds and went back to finish the job. Who gave us everything they had. And who, as we grow old, will always be 19.

[rotorwash]

That's a tough one Tom.

[Frisco-Kid]

Top. The First Sergeant. When I first got to my company in the 101st the First Sergeant was Walter Sabalauski. He was 56yrs. old at the time. He was a short man, about 5'8", but built like a fire hydrant. I was impressed with how much time he spent in the field with us and that he could hump with the best of us. The older guys idolized him. For good reason.

Sometime in the first week of JUN66 [I got in-country 30JUN66], Charlie Company, 2/502 Parachute Infantry Regiment was doing Search and Destroy missions trying to locate the 24th NVA Regiment. This was NW of Dak To in the Central Highlands. Well, they found them. They made contact with what was later to be estimated to be a battalion-sized element. The company was immediately pinned down and on the verge of being overrun, taking heavy casualties. The CO, Cpt. Bill Carpenter, made the decision to call in an airstrike on his own position in an attempt to force the NVA to break contact. The airstrike was napalm. The enemy ceased fire and withdrew long enough for the company to consolidate, reorganize, and establish a defense perimeter and gather up their wounded. They were able to defend the position until reinforcements were able to reach them, and they were able to evacuate the wounded. During the entire battle 1SG Sabalauski exposed himself to danger many times, encouraging his men, setting up defesive positions, and helping evacuate the casualties. For his extraordinary heroism, he was awarded both the Distinguished Service Cross and the Silver Star. Cpt. Carpenter was also awarded the DSC. I stood at attention as General Westmoreland pinned the medals on both of them. The survivors of the battle called themselves Carpenter's Crispy Critters.

Awhile back I did some research on Sgt. Sabalauski. This is what I found:
Walter Sabalauski was born in Lithuania in 1910. His family moved to the states when he was a child. He grew up in Chicago. From 1929-1937 he boxed professionally, losing only 2 fights out of 33 bouts. A car accident had ended his boxing career. In JUN41 he entered the Army. During WWII, he served in the Pacific Theater, fighting on the beachheads of the Solomon Islands, Guadalcanal, and the Philippines. During the Korean War he made the combat jump with the 187th Regiment Combat Team [Airborne]. In '63 he went to VN for the first time as an advisor attached to the 32nd Vietnamese Ranger Battalion. In '65 he fought in the Dominican Republic. He returned for his 2nd tour in VN in '66.

After this tour he returned to the states to serve as Cadet Regimental Sergeant Major at West Point. I guess he didn't like a desk job; he returned to VN and the 101st in '68. Command Sergeant Major Sabalauski retired in 1971.

He passed away in 1993 and was buried with full military honors at Arlington National Cemetary. I'm proud to have served with him. He was a fearless leader in combat and a nice, approachable guy.

Command Sergeant Major Sabalauski's awards include the Distinguished Service Cross, the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, 8 Bronze Stars, 3 Air Medals, 6 Army Commedation Medals, 4 Purple Hearts, 3 awards or the Combat Infantryman's Badge, the Master Parachutist Badge, and the campaign medals from WWII, Korea, Dominican Republic, and Vietnam.

The Air Assault School at Ft. Campbell, KY, home of the 101st Airborne Division [Air Assault], is named after him.

A SOLDIER'S SOLDIER

[Bombardier]

Great story of a great man, thanks Frisco.

Found this picture

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/sabalauski-05.jpg

Being awarded his DSC for the Battle at DAK sal;

[Bigbird]

Yes a very brave man.
I award you med;

Great story thanks. :P

[Frisco-Kid]

U.S. CASUALTIES BY UNITS

Source: National Archives and Records Administration
Unit .......................Nickname ...............KIA...............Comment

1st Cavalry Division* First Team *5,464

25th Infantry Division *Tropic Lightning *4,561

101st Airborne Division *Screaming Eagles* 4,022

1st Infantry Division *Big Red One* 3,151

Various Individual Units -------------- 2,872 *See Note 1 below

9th Infantry Division *Old Reliables* 2,629

4th Infantry Division *Ivy Division* 2,541

173rd Airborne Brigade (Separate) *Sky Soldiers* 1,758

1st Aviation Brigade ---------------- 1,706

196th Light Infantry Brigade ------ 1,188

11th Light Infantry Brigade -------- 1,109

Military Assistance Command Vietnam *MACV* 1,017 --Advisors to ARVN

198th Light Infantry Brigade -------- 987

United States Army Vietnam *USARV *847---- Headquarters - includes advisors

5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) *Green Berets*-- 834

23rd Infantry Division *Americal* 809--- non-brigade units

199th Light Infantry Brigade *Redcatchers* 757

11th Armored Cavalry Regiment* Blackhorse* 729

1st Logistical Command -------------- 598

5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) *Red Diamond *530---- 1st Brigade only

I Field Force Vietnam *IFFV*--------- 353

82d Airborne Division *All American* 228------ 3rd Brigade only

1st Signal Brigade --------------------- 193

II Field Force Vietnam *IIFFV*-------- 80

Engineer Command -------------------- 64

Unit unknown ---------------------------- 6



Note 1: This group is comprised of the following individual units with no further breakdown

17th Field Hospital (An Khe)
22nd Surgical Hospital (Phu Bai)
71st Evacuation Hospital (Pleiku)
91st Evacuation Hospital (Tuy Hoa)
95th Field Hospital (Qui Nhon)
3rd Field Hospital (III Corps)
7th Surgical Hospital (III Corps)
45th Surgical Hospital (III Corps)
93rd Evacuation Hospital (III Corps)
80th Engineer Group
121st Assault Helicopter Company
18th Military Police Brigade
89th Military Police Brigade
8th Transportation Group
48th Transportation Group
11th Aviation Group
12th Aviation Group
23rd Artillery Group
108th Artillery Group
35th Engineer Group
45th Engineer Group
34th General Support Group
506th Field Depot


__________________

[Frisco-Kid]

Somemore statistics to ponder


NUMBER OF U.S. TROOPS SERVING

SERVICE NUMBER % OF TOTAL

Army 1,736,000 67%
Marine Corps 391,000 15%
Air Force 293,000 11%
Navy * 174,000 7%
Total 2,594,000

* Includes 8,000 Coast Guardsmen.

Note: The Southeast Asia Theater encompassed
Indochina, Thailand and the South China Sea.


U.S. Hostile Deaths by Military Service

SERVICE NUMBER % OF TOTAL

Army 30,950 65%
Marines 13,091 28%
Air Force 1,744 4%
Navy 1,628 * 3%
Total 47,413

* The 5 Coast Guardsmen are included in the Navy total.


American Deaths by Year

(Listed in deadliest order)

YEAR ALL DEATHS % OF TOTAL

1968 16,869 29%
1969 11,775 20%
1967 11,348 20%
1966 6,333 11%
1970 6,164 11%
1971 2,413 4%
1965 1,926 3%
1972 763 * 1%
Other Years 607 1%
Total 58,198

* The last U.S. infantry unit was pulled from the field on
Aug. 11, 1972, so U.S. casualties dramatically declined.

* The 143 men subsequently declared dead between 1973
and 2002 are not included in these totals.

* From 1956-1964, 417Americans died in Vietnam.

* During January 1973, 29 Americans died in Vietnam--19
as a result of hostile action. In May 1975, 18
Americans were KIA on Koh Tang Island off Cambodia.

* The three deadliest years of Vietnam (1967, 1968 and
1969) killed 39,992 Americans--3,416 more than the
three years of the entire Korean War.



Major U.S. Army Unit Hostile Deaths

DIVISION/BDE./REGT. KILLED IN ACTION

1st Cavalry 5,444
25th Infantry 4,547
23rd (Americal) 4,040 *
101 st Airborne 4,011
1st Infantry 3,146
9th Infantry 2,624
4th Infantry 2,531
173rd Airborne Brigade 1,748
1st Aviation Brigade 1,701
196th Light Infantry Brigade 1,183
5th Special Forces Group 792
199th Light Infantry Brigade 754
11th Armored Cavalry Regiment 728
5th Mech. Infantry Div. (1st Bde.) 403
82nd Airborne Div. (3rd Bde.) 184

* Includes total for 11th, 198th and 196th (which served part
of its time in Vietnam as a component of the Americal) infantry
brigades. Because the 196th also operated independently, it is
listed separately, too.

Source: The Army at War (The Vietnam Experience series). Boston:
Boston Pub. Co., 1987.



U.S. Army Hostile Deaths by Combat Arms Branch

BRANCH NUMBER % OF TOTAL

Infantry (1) 21,578 70%
Aviation (Helicopter) 1,772 6%
Field Artillery 1,124 4%
Medical Service (2) 1,098 3%
Armor (3) 727 2%
Combat Engineers 609 2%

Note: These branches account for 87% of all 30,950
Army hostile deaths.

(1) Includes Armor recon personnel (11D).

(2) Essentially combat medics.

(3) Includes Armor crewmen, etc.

Source: Estimated by MOS from Washington Headquarters Services
computer reports. Infantry tally could be underestimated.



Top 10 States With Highest Number of Deaths

STATE TOTAL DEATHS

California 5,575
New York 4,119
Texas 3,416
Pennsylvania 3,146
Ohio 3,094
Illinois 2,932
Michigan 2,655
Florida 1,953
North Carolina 1,612
Georgia 1,581



10 Deadliest Battles

BATTLE-------------COMBAT--------------DATES
--------------------FATALITIES--------------------

Ia Drang Valley----300 (1)-------------Oct 23-Nov 26, '65
Khe Sanh-----------205 (2)--------------Jan 20-Apr 14, '68
Dak To--------------192 (3)--------------Nov 1-Dec 1, '67
Cu Nghi-------------121------------------Jan 28-31, '66
Hue------------------119------------------Feb 2-Mar 2, '68
Kim Son Valley-----107------------------Feb 16-28, '66
Con Thien (ambush near)--84---------Jul 2, '67
"Nine Days in May"-79------------------May 18-28, '67
Dak To---------------76-------------------Jun 22, '67
Vinh Huy-------------73-------------------May 30-Jun 2, '67

(1) LZ Albany alone claimed 155 KIA on Nov. 17, making it the single
deadliest U.S. action of the war. LZ X-Ray resulted in another 79 KIA
over two days, Nov. 14-16.

(2) During operations Scotland and Pegasus, a total of 553 Americans
may have been KIA.

(3) 158 of the KIA were sustained at Dak To over six days, Nov. 17-23.

Note: Lengthy operations are excluded. Only actions that could be
categorized as single or directly related engagements are tabulated.

Source: Sigler, David B. Vietnam Battle Chronology: U.S. Army and
Marine Corps Combat Operations, 1965-1973. Jefferson, N.C.:
McFarland & Co., 1992.



Miscellaneous

Aug. 5, 1964 (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution) -Jan. 27, 1973
(Paris Peace Accords)
The official "Vietnam Era" ended May 7, 1975, and extends
back to Feb. 28, 1961, for purposes of VA benefits for
vets who served "in country" between 1961-1964.

PEAK U.S. TROOP STRENGTH
April 1969 = 543,400

TOTAL U.S. DEAD
58,198 (Nov. 1, 1955-May 15, 1975) *

* The Vietnam Veterans Memorial tally
of 58,235 is higher because it regularly
adds post-war WIA deaths.

NON-HOSTILE DEATHS
10,785

TOTAL U.S. WOUNDED (Not mortal, hospitalized)
153,303

PRISONERS OF WAR (U.S.)
766 (652 returned; 114 died in captivity)

DEADLIEST U.S. DAY (KIA)
Jan. 31, 1968 = 246

DEADLIEST U.S. WEEK (KIA)
Feb. 10-17, 1968 = 543

PEAK U.S. FATALITY MONTH
February 1968 = 3,895

MEDAL OF HONOR RECIPIENTS
245

COPYRIGHT 2003 Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group


__________________

[rotorwash]

Great post, Tom. It was interesting to me to find out that Aviation types were second only to infantry in number of KIA's. Makes me feel - well, actually, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[Frisco-Kid]

RW

Interesting, but not surprising. Of all of the different infantry support-type units [Arty, fast movers, engineers, etc.], you guys were the most up close and personal. Whether it was inserting or extracting us from a hot LZ; resupplying us with "beans and bullets"; bringing pee down on a ville, treeline, or mountainside to cover our arses; turning the scary nights into day for us during a battle; bringing "The Cavalry" to us to save the day.....and our lives; or, and this is the one that's going to get most of you into the gates of Heaven, getting our wounded out and cared for. Often all of this while facing great danger to your aircraft and hides. I can swear as an eye witness to the courage and compassion shown, and the personal sacrifices made, by you guys. No,........it doesn't surprise me at all, my friend.

[rotorwash]

And we could perform retrograde operations at 120 mph. Thats the part I liked.

[Frisco-Kid]

The Most Decorated Vietnam War Hero

Many Americans could tell you that Sgt. Alvin York was the most decorated war hero of WWI. Most Americans could tell you that Lt. Audie Murphy was the most decorated war hero of WWII. But almost none of them could tell you that Sgt. Joe Hooper was the most decorated war hero from the Vietnam War.



YOU SHOULD KNOW SOLDIER JOE HOOPER

Taken from the April 1990 Issue #22, Delta Raider Newsletter

Published Jan 22,1986, Joliet Herald-News, Joliet, IL


Joe Hooper may have been the perfect warrior, the ideal combat soldier. But his name today isn't famous. He should be.

He walked as tall as Alvin York and Audie Murphy. But they earned their combat records in World Wars I and II. Joe earned his medals in that unpopular war. That place called Vietnam.

Joe Hooper was the most decorated soldier in Vietnam.

His story starts in Moses Lake, Wash., which is a little town about 250 miles from Seattle. Joe grew up on a dairy farm there. He was a high school athlete, a track star and a football player.

At the age of 17 Joe enlisted in the Navy. He liked the service life and planned a military career. But when it was time to reenlist in 1961, he changed to the Army.

Joe ended up with the 101st Airborne Division. And he went to Vietnam where he earned the Congressional Medal of Honor.

He was a sergeant, a squad leader then, leading his men near the city of Hue. This is what happened on Feb. 21, 1968, according to the citation with his medal:

"...Company D was assaulting a heavily defensed enemy position along a river bank when it encountered a withering hail of fire from rockets, machine-guns and automatic weapons. (He) rallied several men and stormed across the river, over-running several bunkers on the opposite shore... With utter disregard for his own safety, he moved out under the intense fire again and pulled back the wounded, moving them to safety... (He) was seriously wounded, but he refused medical aid and returned to his men. With the relentless enemy fire disrupting the attack, he single-handedly stormed three enemy bunkers, destroying them with hand grenades and rifle fire, and shot two enemy soldiers who had attacked and wounded the chaplain...

"Finding his men under heavy fire from a house to the front, he proceeded alone to the building, killing its occupants with rifle fire and grenades. By now his initial body wound had been compounded by grenade fragments, yet, despite the multiple wounds and loss of blood, he continued to lead his men against the intense enemy fire...

"(He) gathered several grenades and raced down a small trench which ran the length of the bunker line, tossing grenades into each bunker as he passed by, killing all but two of the occupants... He then raced across an open field, still under fire, to rescue a wounded man who was trapped in a trench. Upon reaching the man, he was faced by an armed enemy soldier whom he killed with a pistol... He neutralized the final pocket of enemy resistance by fatally wounding three North Vietnamese officers..."

Joe was wounded seven times that day. But he wouldn't allow himself to be removed from the battlefield until all his men were safe. He finally passed out from the loss of blood.

Hr regained consciousness in a field hospital. But Joe was still worried about his men, young men who depended upon the experience of the 29-year-old sergeant.

The next day he stole a rifle and hitched a ride back to his outfit. Technically, he was AWOL. But by the time the Army found him two days later, Joe had been wounded again.

President Richard Nixon pinned the Medal of Honor on Joe, who had been commissioned a second lieutenant. He went on a speaking tour across the nation.

Then he asked to go back to Vietnam.

That required special orders from the president for a Medal of Honor soldier to go back to Vietnam on a second tour.

But Joe felt he was needed there. He knew he was a good soldier, a good leader. He said his experience would help save the lives of some of those young men who were fighting in Vietnam.

After two combat tours in the war, Joe had received 37 medals. They included two Silver Stars (one of them had started out as another recommendation for a second Medal of Honor), six Bronze Stars and eight Purple Hearts.

Joe returned to duty at Fort Polk, La. where he was training recruits. But he didn't fit in well with stateside duty & he resigned his commission in 1972.

Joe was disillusioned by the "new" Army and its lack of discipline. He believed that discipline and training were what paid off in combat.

Joe's wife said he cried that day as he watched the news films showing the last of the American forces being pulled out of Vietnam. He told her all those lives and all those broken bodies had been wasted. He said we had accomplished nothing.

Joe made many speeches about his combat experience. He told a reporter he could smell the enemy.

If someone asked, he would tell them about the day he won the Medal of Honor. "I had no choice that day," Joe would say. "I did what I had to do."

That was kind of Joe Hooper's philosophy in life. You do what you have to do at the time and you face tomorrow when it arrives.

Joe's legacy

He gave everything

"When you retire from guerrilla fighting, it is not something you just walk away from without losing some part of you. In those days, you lived, almost thrived, on fear. Now there is no fear in my life, and I admit I'm a little flat." (Joe Hooper in "The Seattle Times")

There was a lot of hoopla surrounding Joe Hooper when he came home from Vietnam as the most decorated soldier of that war.

He made speeches and guest appearances on television. Famous people wanted to meet him and to shake his hand. Promoters talked about books, even a movie on his life.

They said Steve McQueen should star as Joe in the movie. The six-foot blond combat veteran had a strong resemblance to McQueen.

Joe had received the Congressional Medal of Honor and 36 other medals for his bravery during two tours of duty in Vietnam. That was eight more medals than Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier of World War II, had received.

And Murphy had gone on to become a movie star, starring as himself in "To Hell and Back."

Joe had been to the same place.

A California television station wanted to do a series of stories on Joe and Murphy together. Joe and Murphy met, became friends and agreed to the series. But the week the series was started Murphy was killed in a plane crash in 1971.

Joe attended Murphy's funeral in Arlington National Cemetery. Little did Joe know then that he would be buried there eight years later. Both graves are near the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

Disillusioned with the stateside Army, Joe resigned his Army commission in 1972. He was a first lieutenant.

But just as quickly as the instant fame had come to Joe Hooper, it was over with. No book had been written, no movie was made.

Joe went to work with the Veterans Administration in Seattle, Wash. as a veteran's benefits counselor. He was good at it, but he was bored with the bureaucracy.

"He related to the vets like they were friends," said Alex Vira, a friend who also worked at the V.A.

Vira said Joe realized he was a symbol of something great and he fit the role. Joe was a patriotic man. They were both captains in the same reserve unit. Once they had gone on a training exercise at Fort Polk, La.

"We were walking across the parade ground that night headed for the Post Exchange when we were just swamped with bald headed recruits from the 101st Airborne," Vira said. "I don't know how they knew who he was but they all wanted to meet Joe Hooper and get his autograph. He gave them a little talk about hanging in there no matter how tough it gets."

"Joe was a man of extremes," Combs said. "And there was no in-between for him. When he partied, he partied the most and the longest. That was his negative side. On the positive side, he could be the most likeable, most lovable man you could meet."

He said Joe wasn't bitter about no longer being in the public spotlight. But he was surprised and disappointed.

"As a civilian there were less and less invitations for him to be in the public eye," Combs said.

Fay Hooper, Joe's wife, said he wasn't haunted by nightmares from Vietnam. She said her husband had found a peace within himself before he went back to Vietnam the second time.

"My husband didn't go to church a lot, but he believed in God," she said. "He believed that God had a plan for each person and if you were meant to survive you would."

She said Joe had a special feeling for children. He often talked to scout groups and underprivileged boys.

"He told them you don't have to be macho to be a man," she said. "He stressed being yourself and you can do anything you want to if you try hard enough."

Joe eventually left the V.A. and found a new interest. Race horses. At one time he owned five of them. He wanted to breed and raise race horses. He never missed the Kentucky Derby.

He was in Louisville, KY for Derby week when he died on May 5, 1979. He was found in a hotel room. He was just 40.

The perfect warier and the ideal combat soldier had died a quiet death from a cerebral hemorrhage while sleeping.

The news of Joe Hoopers death wasn't big news. The national media ignored his passing. There was just a notice in the Medal of Honor Society's newsletter.

Joe was buried in Arlington National Cemetery less than 20 paces from the grave of his friend Audie Murphy.

There has been a movement to name a wing of the V.A. hospital in Seattle after Joe. But Congress has taken no action yet.

I asked Red Combs, Joe's close friend and godfather to his daughter, what legacy Joe had left behind for us to remember.

"I guess Joe Hooper's legacy was that there were heroes in Vietnam," Combs replied. "Heroes who gave that war everything in them and were willing to sacrifice their lives for our country."

http://img119.exs.cx/img119/677/hoopernixon4iq.th.jpg (http://img119.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img119&image=hoopernixon4iq.jpg)

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[Frisco-Kid]

About the first week of JUL67. I've been home on leave for about a week. Two weeks, or so, before then I had been on a patrol near Duc Pho, RVN.

It's about 2:00AM, and Don and some other guys have just dropped me off at the house. We were just getting back from "The City" [San Francisco], where my friends had taken me to see Haight-Ashbury first hand. It had come into being while I was gone. What a place! We walked around drinking cheap wine out of a paper bag. We stopped and listened to street musicians on the corners, where strangers would pass you a joint that was making the rounds. A couple of hippie chicks asked us for a ride to a party in Daly City. We get some beer and wine, and head down the penninsula. We drop the hippie chicks off at their party, after turning down an invitation to go in.

It's a beautiful, warm summer night and we decide to drive down El Camino Real to San Carlos, instead of the freeway. I'm riding shotgun in Don's '50 Ford, drinking beer. By the time we pull up in front of my house, I'm pretty sh!t-faced [Pissed to you Brits :mrgreen: ]. I get to the front door and fumble with the key. I quietly go across the living room, not wanting to wake up my parents or my sisters and brother. I go down the hall to my room, which is directly across from my parents. My door has been closed all day and as I enter, I get a blast of heat from the sealed room. The moon is shining, casting strange shadows and silhoettes on the walls. As I enter, there's a pole lamp on my right with a conical shaped shade on it. WHAT THE...?! I punch it, knocking it over to the floor with a crash. The light is flicked on, and I turn to see my parents standing in the doorway, looking at me straddling the floor lamp with my fists clenched.
My Dad says "What the Hell is going on?"
My Mom is looking at my face, and a scared/worried look come across her face.
"It's okay, Mom."
My Dad gently pulls her back through the door, but not before I see her eyes well up with tears.
After I get undressed and into bed, my Mom quietly comes into my room and sits on the edge of my bed.
"It's not okay, is it Tom?"
"No, not always, Mom."
She strokes my face with a cool hand, pulls my blanket up to my chin, and kisses my forehead "Good Night."

Niether of my parents ever brought the incident up again. For a long time afterwards I would catch my Mom looking at me with that worried look in her eye, sometimes looking like she would burst into tears any moment. I always felt guilty for puting that look in her eyes.

[Bombardier]

Thats a sad, but nice story Tom.
Mums always know , dont they ?
;)

[rotorwash]

Brings back some memories, Tom. My worst night was when I kicked the new wife out of bed, thrashing around and screaming "Incoming." And that was after I had been home six months. The smell of diesel fumes used to trigger the flashbacks in me.

RW

[Bombardier]

The smell of diesel fumes used to trigger the flashbacks in me.

RW

Jesus RW what you got deisel in ya bedroom for :mrgreen: .

On a serious note. How long did it take you guys to get over all that stuff ?, if indeed you ever did.
I suppose you dont get over it really, just learn to manage it :roll:

[Frisco-Kid]

Here in the United States 30MAY is Memorial Day. It is the day that our country remembers and honors those that made the ultimate sacrifice during all of our foreign wars.


Fallen Eagles

IN REMEMBERANCE OF MY FALLEN BROTHERS OF C COMPANY, 2ND BATTALLION, 502ND PARACHUTE INFANTRY REGIMENT, 101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION. I AM PROUD TO HAVE FOUGHT BESIDE YOU, AND TO HAVE CALLED SOME OF YOU "MY FRIEND."


1. PFC WILLIAM LEON
New York, NY
KIA: 12JUL66- Dak To
Age: 22

2. PFC TOMMY MORALES
Los Angeles, CA
KIA: 8SEP66- Tuy Hoa
Age: 20

3. PFC ALFRED STONEHOUSE
New York, NY
KIA: 10SEP66- Tuy Hoa
Age: 21

4. SGT. CHARLES BLANCO
Philadelphia, PA
KIA: 20SEP66- Tuy Hoa
Age: 25

5. SP/4 HORTON S. COKER, JR.
Seattle, WA
KIA: 17OCT66- Tuy Hoa
Age: 20

6. PFC WILLIAM L. CYR
Missoula, MT
KIA: 8NOV66- Tuy Hoa
Age: 20

7. PFC CARL L. FALCK, JR.
Alder, WA
KIA: 13NOV66- Tuy Hoa
Age: 19

8. PFC JAREL W. AYERS
Lamar, MO
KIA: 31DEC66- Kontum
Age: 21

9. 1ST LT. LARRY D. EARLS
Murfreesboro, TN
KIA: 2JAN67- Kontum
Age: 28

10. PFC WALTER L. GOSHORN
Mifflintown, PA
KIA: 2JAN67- Kontum
Age: 19

11. PFC ELMER L. JUCKETT III
West Palm Beach, FL
KIA: 2JAN67- Kontum
Age: 19

12. PFC WILBUR L. KOHR
Fredricksburg, PA
KIA: 2JAN67- Kontum
Age: 19

13. PFC DENNIS G. NICOLA
Champaign, Il
KIA: 2JAN67- Kontum
Age: 19

14. SP/4 JOHN H. O'BRIEN
Butte Falls, OR
KIA: 2JAN67- Kontum
Age: 21

15.